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  1. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    8/09/2012 4:34pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two thoughts:

    He thought he saw a super important opportunity and rushed his attack and forgot some discipline on fundamentals.

    Machida's earlier strikes had taken more out if him than it appeared on tv. His judgement may have been impaired.
  2. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2012 10:45pm

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     Style: BJJ

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    I'm not talking **** about Bader or calling him an idiot
    I didn't direct that at you. A lot of people insult fighters when they lose, and I've seen a lot of **** directed at Bader on the internet after this fight. It happens all the time, I just decided to vent on this one.

    I do think you might be judging him a bit harshly though. In my opinion, his mistake is understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    nor is it 20/20 hindsight to say you shouldn't go straight at a great counter-puncher like that. He got frustrated because his corner wasn't giving him any way to win the fight, not because Machida is a magician.
    I don't find it hard to imagine that someone might **** up for a split second during a fight, especially when frustrated. He tried to close the distance and land a strike, expecting that Machida was going to make a large movement backwards. Watching the fight again, I notice that Machida did take a small step back and it appeared as if he would continue, then he changed direction. Bader knows very well that hands down, chin up is a bad idea, but he thought he was safe from a counter and sacrificed his defence to make the reach. He took a risk because he was frustrated. He found out it was the wrong decision, ending up a few feet closer than he expected to be.



    He's not the first to **** up the entry on Machida and get knocked out. This was almost a decade ago:



    If you were in his corner, what would you have told him to do?
    Last edited by danno; 8/09/2012 10:52pm at .
  3. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/09/2012 11:14pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    loops downward, leaving his face totally in the open.
    You mean like this?

  4. Mr.Miyagi is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2012 3:04am


     Style: BJJ/Zumba

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    I didn't direct that at you. A lot of people insult fighters when they lose, and I've seen a lot of **** directed at Bader on the internet after this fight. It happens all the time, I just decided to vent on this one.

    I do think you might be judging him a bit harshly though. In my opinion, his mistake is understandable.



    I don't find it hard to imagine that someone might **** up for a split second during a fight, especially when frustrated. He tried to close the distance and land a strike, expecting that Machida was going to make a large movement backwards. Watching the fight again, I notice that Machida did take a small step back and it appeared as if he would continue, then he changed direction. Bader knows very well that hands down, chin up is a bad idea, but he thought he was safe from a counter and sacrificed his defence to make the reach. He took a risk because he was frustrated. He found out it was the wrong decision, ending up a few feet closer than he expected to be.



    He's not the first to **** up the entry on Machida and get knocked out. This was almost a decade ago:



    If you were in his corner, what would you have told him to do?
    Oooo, that extra angle shows it much better. The timing was fucking beautiful!

    Thanks for the extra insight, too!
    Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

    Miyagi: Feeling correct.

    Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

    Miyagi: You trust the quality of what you know, not quantity.
  5. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2012 9:52am

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     Style: 血鷲

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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    If you were in his corner, what would you have told him to do?
    Protect yourself at all times.

    Closing distance doesn't mean you need to drop one hand while launching the other.

    Especially not when trying to close distance with Machida.

    As far as I could see (and, admittedly, I'm far from an expert on the matter) there was no reason for Bader to do what he did with his left hand when attempting to close range. It would not have added to his forward momentum, would not have helped with body angle or positioning...and left his face wide open.

    When closing, last I checked, one is supposed to protect one's face with fists and one's body with arms. If closing while throwing a strike, the striking-side shoulder protects the face on one side (unless one is--for some unfathomable reason--closing range with the chin up) while a hand that hasn't been dropped protects the other side of the face.

    This is what mystified me about Bader: why drop that left hand when trying to close? If it were somebody at a less elevated ranking, one might understand, but Bader is an upper-level pro MMA fighter.
    Last edited by Vieux Normand; 8/10/2012 9:55am at .
  6. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/10/2012 10:30pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Protect yourself at all times.

    Closing distance doesn't mean you need to drop one hand while launching the other.
    Totally agree. Bader would say the same, and so would his corner.

    The thing is, high level fighters do it all the time. When they're punching, kicking, moving, fighters will drop their hands for balance if they believe it is safe to do so.

    No one complains when Hendo does it:



    When Machida does it:



    When GSP does it:



    Silva drops his hands a LOT



    And it's not just the case in MMA:



    Now, imagine in all the cases above, if they had misread the timing and distance, thought their opponent was definitely going to move a certain way, but they didn't. That's exactly what Machida is looking for.

    Bader was looking for this - for the opponent to back up.

  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2012 1:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by danno View Post
    Totally agree. Bader would say the same, and so would his corner.

    The thing is, high level fighters do it all the time. When they're punching, kicking, moving, fighters will drop their hands for balance if they believe it is safe to do so.

    No one complains when Hendo does it:



    When Machida does it:



    When GSP does it:



    Silva drops his hands a LOT



    And it's not just the case in MMA:



    Now, imagine in all the cases above, if they had misread the timing and distance, thought their opponent was definitely going to move a certain way, but they didn't.
    That's why--regardless of one's level--one should never forget the basics that one has drilled in, again and again, as part of getting to the that level. You do NOT need to drop hands in order to close distance. It adds nothing to the transition (just curious: how exactly does pawing and then looping the nonstriking arm downward help with "balance", as you mentioned above?) and leaves you open.

    Also, when is it "safe to do so"...other than by being so far out of range that one has all the time in the world to get 'em up if the range closes? If they're close enough to strike your face, and you're not protecting your face, isn't there something a bit wrong with that picture?

    If your adversary didn't take advantage of the chance given him by your closing range without properly protecting yourself, consider yourself lucky. Yes, luck can help determine outcomes...but how often does a top-level fighter want to rely on luck?

    Bader was looking for this - for the opponent to back up.
    When one is "looking for" the opponent to do something that the opponent may or may not do, one is just asking to get KOed.
  8. greatheight is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2012 10:05pm


     Style: Kickboxing/BJJ/Wimp

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Vieux Normand - just out of curiosity, are you a trainer or something? What martial arts do you partake in?
  9. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2012 10:19pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    That's why--regardless of one's level--one should never forget the basics that one has drilled in, again and again, as part of getting to the that level. You do NOT need to drop hands in order to close distance. It adds nothing to the transition (just curious: how exactly does pawing and then looping the nonstriking arm downward help with "balance", as you mentioned above?) and leaves you open.
    Well, I don't know what to tell you. No matter how much people train to keep the other hand up at all times, they still drop it, whether they know it or not. IMO it's a bio-mechanical thing. To help swing one side of the body forward, you swing the other side back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    Also, when is it "safe to do so"...other than by being so far out of range that one has all the time in the world to get 'em up if the range closes? If they're close enough to strike your face, and you're not protecting your face, isn't there something a bit wrong with that picture?
    If you look at all the photos I posted of people landing the right hand successfully while dropping the left, you can see that their opponents are in no position to counter in that instant.

    But if they'd misjudged how their opponents would react, they would have ended up in the same situation as Bader.

    It wasn't really dropping the hand which was Bader's biggest mistake IMO, it was misreading Machida's movement and timing, and telegraphing his intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand View Post
    When one is "looking for" the opponent to do something that the opponent may or may not do, one is just asking to get KOed.
    But you have to do that all the time. You're constantly trying to read and predict what the opponent is going to do and trick them into doing what you want, all while hiding your own intentions. If you fail at that, you get KO'ed. In that regard, I think Machida is just on a different level to Bader.
  10. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2012 10:25pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by greatheight View Post
    Vieux Normand - just out of curiosity, are you a trainer or something? What martial arts do you partake in?
    Vieux has punched more faces than I've eaten Weet-Bix.
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