i'm not really looking forward to going up to orange, as yellow I think looks a lot better
they should be swapped around
That is old-school; I agree totally with a reality based scenario or actual competition as the real test of training.
Originally Posted by Omega Supreme
Ranks in many martial arts are about more than just competition prowess. It's possible to stack up a pretty good competition record knowing only a small subset of the curriculum. You can also be a great fighter whose form is a bad example, or who doesn't have the first clue about teaching, or who doesn't contribute anything to the club or organization you are a part of.
Originally Posted by slamdunc
I was agreeing with Omega in that it is a validation of skills. He prefaced that part of his post by saying his student had been ducking promotions. My point was that competition is the real test of training, not necessarily a belt rank.
Originally Posted by NeilG
I have seen really good functional martial artist get passed over for promotion, merely because of their attitude. I also agree with this, and with your logic that are about more than competition prowess. I hope you didn't take my previous post out of context.
"There are many things far more important than being able to fight well. And if learning that skill set also came with, by proxy, bad social habits, poor attitude, or an overall vulgar effect on human decency, then it wouldn’t be of interest to me"
Matt Thornton, aliveness guru and BJJ black belt, in Philosophy as a verb, part 1, the "theology" of traditional martial arts
Belts are very helpful for things like competition and sparring. If I am playing judo with a guy in a white belt I will change my game because I have no idea how good his breakfalls may be. I don't want some guy to be unable to work the next day because we were playing a game and I pasted him. Also, when I am sparring with someone in a BJJ context and he is a lower rank I won't use certain tactics as they might cause injury to one or both of us. If he is advanced then I can trust him not to spazz on me.
As for wrestling and muay thai, I have trained with D1 wrestlers and I have trained with guys who washed out in jr high, if you think wrestling has no ranks then go down and do three minutes with a guy who wrestled peewee then step up to a D1 guy. You will know a difference, I promise you. Also competitive muay thai definitely has rankings as well. They just don't let any shmuck roll up to Lumpinee and scrap.
Also if you are ranked, then I know pretty much where you are and how much explanation and supervision you will need in class. The higher the rank the more autonomous you are due to your vocabulary within the style and ability to safely perform the technique.
Last edited by Naszir; 7/27/2012 8:34pm at .
Reason: Edit to Add
This shows precisely how much martial arts ranks actually mean.
Originally Posted by Omega Supreme
Did you miss the rest of that paragraph?
Originally Posted by Kave
Unfortunately I read that entire pile of drivel. Trying to equate the difference between pro and amature boxing with a coloured belt or sash ranking system. Trying to tell me that there is a ranking system in wrestling. Yes you make valid assumptions on someones ability in wrestling by the level of competition they have competed in, and how well they have done. No, this is not the same as a formal ranking system.
Originally Posted by Naszir
Judo has competitive structures similar to Wrestling, does that mean Judo runs two parallel formal ranking systems? Would a system similar to the sash or belt system be of value in non-combat based sports such as sprinting or pentathlon?
The answer is that in any competition driven art, ranking systems are completely unnecessary because your level of ability is judged by your results. In non-competition-driven arts your level of ability is only relevant within your school, and should be readily apparent to your training partners.
However, if wearing a camo-belt gives you warm fuzzy feelings, and makes you feel like a super deadly ninja, feel free to wear it. Personally I don't actively seek rankings, but it doesn't bother me if you do.
What drivel are you referring to? That Omega held off on ranking his student because the guy kept ducking promotions or are you confusing the rest of the paragraph you, yourself, quoted with what I posted? There are for lack of a better term belts given in sports like Sprinting and Pentathlon in at least part of the world. The Soviets introduced the Master of Sport ranking system to recognize competitive excellence. In addition to judo, SAMBO and greco-roman wrestling, you can get a MoS in kettlebells, power lifting etc.
Also there is an MMA promotion that some could argue is a separate martial art that uses a ranking system sans belts but instead uses classes, in fact you could call them kyus if you like. SHOOTO has Class D, Class C, Class B and finally, Class A. This makes the ruleset gradually more and more open. This way you don't have someone with no fights come in and get mauled by a seasoned competitor. That reminds me of judo rankings which were implemented by Kano to differentiate levels of proficiency and knowledge and to keep people safe in sparring and tournament competition.
Judo does not have two parallel ranking systems, what they have are promotional points. People are required, with some exception, to compete. If a judoka wants to advance, the quickest way is to win matches, period. Judoka can receive points outside of competition but they are far fewer and advancement takes much longer. Then when they have enough points, they do a grading. They demonstrate what they know, that they are more than just really good at a single throw. In addition to the practical demonstration of personal skill, to get the most basic black belt ranking, shodan, judoka are also graded on their ability to teach. This has to do with the judo coaching model that exists. A black belt should know more than just their favorite throw and pin.
This isn't about warm fuzzies from a belt, this is about having verifiable criteria for measuring a skill set. That is why NGBs are necessary in combat sports. Now had you said something about say, BJJ, and its grading system, I could agree with you. There is no specific set of requirements for grading except by the school/association. No NGB exists for BJJ, this may be partially due to the way the Gracies were instructed and so that paradigm was perpetuated or it could be that no one wants to give up their autonomy.