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  1. ccamara is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 11:57am


     Style: Goju Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am sad to say that then your dojo is not practicing Karate anymore. This happens a lot, usually in two different variations:

    -One is one the Teacher does accept his lack of knowledge of his own style, and instead of improving, he decides to put things from other styles transforming it into something different, so then you are not doing Karate anymore.

    -Another thing is those who donīt accept it and keep doing the same stuff all his life without improving it or caring if itīs correct or not.

    First I would like to say that there are plenty of misconceptions about Karate, as the defending thing. Modern Karate styles are really Bullshit, or modernization or whatever you want to call it. Itīs sad, but Karate deserves all the bashing it getīs...if it didnīt there wouldnīt really be any bashing.

    There is something called Kashai no genri, or rules for analyzing the Kata, and one of those rules is: there is no defense or attack...every move is an attack and a defense at the same time. Other very important that people like to forget is this: There is only one opponent...those who think kata is for fighting multiple...well...bullshit...

    The word uke, doesnt mean block...it means something more as reception...you receive the opponentīs technique, donīt block it.

    All I am trying to say is that it looks as that Gym is not qualified to teach a good martial art , not because of the fact of including things from Muay thai etc...which I think is perfectly correct, but because of not giving Kata the importance it has. But this is the same in most Karate schools...people just donīt understand Kata or itīs benefits...by taking it out you are taking out the base of that style. Instead he should improve his knowledge in the style he is teaching, not look outside to see what he can find that covers the areas that he thinks are missing or in which he lacks knowledge.
    The original styles from Okinawa are pretty complete systems, itīs ok to look outside and cross train, is even necessary, but ih the teacher doesnīt trust his own style or knowledge, including Muay drills is not going to solve the problem. When you start cross training Muay for example, you see all the common things with the okinawan styles...is amazing and I am pretty sure Siam boxing was a huge influence in Karate development.
    Even the Mai Muay techniques are Ippon Kumiteīs that you can find in many Katas.
    Analyze the Kata from an agressive point of view, donīt think about defense...look out for the Kasai no genri rules...I am sure they are on the internet, and you shall see Kata differently.
  2. goshinbudoJJ is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 12:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Judo, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ccamara View Post
    I am sad to say that then your dojo is not practicing Karate anymore. This happens a lot, usually in two different variations:

    -One is one the Teacher does accept his lack of knowledge of his own style, and instead of improving, he decides to put things from other styles transforming it into something different, so then you are not doing Karate anymore.

    -Another thing is those who donīt accept it and keep doing the same stuff all his life without improving it or caring if itīs correct or not.

    First I would like to say that there are plenty of misconceptions about Karate, as the defending thing. Modern Karate styles are really Bullshit, or modernization or whatever you want to call it. Itīs sad, but Karate deserves all the bashing it getīs...if it didnīt there wouldnīt really be any bashing.

    There is something called Kashai no genri, or rules for analyzing the Kata, and one of those rules is: there is no defense or attack...every move is an attack and a defense at the same time. Other very important that people like to forget is this: There is only one opponent...those who think kata is for fighting multiple...well...bullshit...

    The word uke, doesnt mean block...it means something more as reception...you receive the opponentīs technique, donīt block it.

    All I am trying to say is that it looks as that Gym is not qualified to teach a good martial art , not because of the fact of including things from Muay thai etc...which I think is perfectly correct, but because of not giving Kata the importance it has. But this is the same in most Karate schools...people just donīt understand Kata or itīs benefits...by taking it out you are taking out the base of that style. Instead he should improve his knowledge in the style he is teaching, not look outside to see what he can find that covers the areas that he thinks are missing or in which he lacks knowledge.
    The original styles from Okinawa are pretty complete systems, itīs ok to look outside and cross train, is even necessary, but ih the teacher doesnīt trust his own style or knowledge, including Muay drills is not going to solve the problem. When you start cross training Muay for example, you see all the common things with the okinawan styles...is amazing and I am pretty sure Siam boxing was a huge influence in Karate development.
    Even the Mai Muay techniques are Ippon Kumiteīs that you can find in many Katas.
    Analyze the Kata from an agressive point of view, donīt think about defense...look out for the Kasai no genri rules...I am sure they are on the internet, and you shall see Kata differently.
    ccamara, welcome to Bullshido, perhaps you should make an introduction in Newbietown?

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64
  3. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 12:58pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds to me like your teacher has decided that he wants to teach people to fight first and then, once they are competent at fighting, they can learn katas and whatever hidden meaning is contained within them. Actually, sounds like the correct way to go in my opinion.




    P.S. feel free to substitute the word "fight" with "defend themselves" as they are not mutually exclusive.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  4. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 1:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Sounds to me like your teacher has decided that he wants to teach people to fight first and then, once they are competent at fighting, they can learn katas and whatever hidden meaning is contained within them. Actually, sounds like the correct way to go in my opinion.

    P.S. feel free to substitute the word "fight" with "defend themselves" as they are not mutually exclusive.
    Exactly.

    When I hear anyone say that they've "found grappling in the kata"--and then state that they have no training in grappling--it's time to roll your eyes and leave.

    How does one go about "finding" something when one doesn't know what it is?
  5. Vorpal is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 2:40pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Defend" does not always mean letting the other guy hit first. He balls his fist, I knock him out. I just defended myself.
  6. traversnz is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 5:46pm


     Style: Judo, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Inventor View Post
    The more remote a budo form remains from sportive endeavor, the more positively it identifies with combat effectiveness and the classical tradition. The bugei (classical martial arts) are not sportive and thus a budo form interested in attaining or preserving combat efficiency must also avoid sportive endeavors of all kinds. A true fighting art cannot be practiced without concomitant element of danger, nor can it be brought to a practical conclusion without the spilling of blood. However, in order that it may be practiced at a time when there is lack of martial applications, training methods must be designed to
    control it without reducing its combat values. Rules and regulations enabling a fighting art to become a competitive sport tend to reduce its combat effectiveness. With this watering- down process combat values weaken, often disappear, and elements unrelated to real combat creep into the exercise patterns.

    The index of a true fighting art is seen in its training methods. A bugei or budo is a true combat system only if, it is practiced in kata form for the tactics and methods of such a system are such that no conclusion between opponents can be reached without resulting in injury or death.
    Serious question - how much of your training time is spent in discussion?
  7. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2013 9:40pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by traversnz View Post
    Serious question - how much of your training time is spent in discussion?
    It's the word-phalanx self-defense system.
  8. ccamara is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2013 3:13am


     Style: Goju Ryu

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you Goshinbudo :)
  9. ccamara is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2013 3:28am


     Style: Goju Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=Diesel_tke;2781320]Sounds to me like your teacher has decided that he wants to teach people to fight first and then, once they are competent at fighting, they can learn katas and whatever hidden meaning is contained within them. Actually, sounds like the correct way to go in my opinion.

    You are right also of course, things are not just black or white. But proper trained martial arts teach just that. I can teach you how to "fight" as you say, or for sports competition in 6 months, just to be able to defend yourself...or not? Defend yourself against a drunkard? sure....against an experience fighter? (whatever style) NO.

    The thing is that a good system teaches you how to fight...some teach some things first and others later and viceversa...but If you have a good system and you claim to be teaching it, you should try and get the most of the system.
    Me myself had been in that situation that I perceived the system didnīt give some things and started looking in another systems. But It wasnīt the system failing, it was me and my teacher at the time.
    Of course is hard to find a real teacher...and sadly Karate has a very high amount of practitioners and a very low level in general, because of many factors.

    I am also a believer that the style has to evolve, but one has to be consequent with what he teaches.
    That teacher can put some Muay drills, without knowing nothing about Muay Thai also and mix things up, without really understanding what he is doing instead of teching a solid style with itīs natural progression. Goju or Muay Thai have their basics and their progression, their different training stages, depending also if you are headed for Muay conpetition or not you may do some things or not. A solid system has a solid method.

    ALSO I am talking mostly ignorant of the situation, this teacher may be very knowledgable in many arts and itīs mixing them really good. I just took the post for sharing my thoughts in something which is very common.
  10. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2013 8:33am

    Join us... or die
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Right, but I personally wound't want my students getting beat up if I could help it. I wouldn't want only my higher level students being able to defend themselves. I would have good solid basics taught first. Stuff you can use, like Muay Thai. Then, for the people who want to stick around and learn the other parts of the art, that would be for the more experienced students. Who at that stage, should be able to fight even better due to years of experience in actually fighting.

    The problem is that a lot of school don't care about teaching their students to fight. The katas are taught in order to give them something to learn. A curriculum to work their way through, while having to pay for testing fees and sign year long contracts. The goal there being to keep students and thus keep their money. Having nothing to do with teaching them to defend themselves.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
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