Looking for a Fight

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

Long time lurker… first time posting…

So, I’m near 40 years old, a father of 3 and a husband. I’ve broken my wrist and tore up the tendons in the wrist. I’ve torn the ACL in both knees. I’ve gotten everything fixed, but of course nothing (especially my wrist) is like it used to be.

Anyway, I’ve studied karate for going on 10 years (4 years of Matsubyashi Shorin Ryu and 6 years of Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu). I’ve always enjoyed the discipline inherent to karate, the physical control it takes to make sure everything is placed just right. I suppose in that way it’s kinda like dance, however unlike dance there is also the application to kata and waza. The oiya and bunkai are really what excite me. I study and practice and study and practice some more because it is amazing to me how subtle movement in my body (a shifting of 45-degrees on the balls of my feet, the difference between a raised elbow and one held tight and low, the use of the forearm vs the pisiform bone in your wrist) can dramatically affect my technique and how my uke (“opponent”) reacts to it.

Karate has always been about self defense to me, however. Heck I cannot think of a single technique or kata or waza that assumes the practitioner is the aggressor. Everything is always employed defensively. I daresay one of the implied lessons in karate is that when you attack you open yourself up to injury and counterattack.

I guess the philosophical mindset (and, no, I am not getting “spiritual” on you) of training for defensive purposes it what excites me.

My dojo lately, however, has been moving more and more toward an aggressive mindset. The owner/sensei has started combining Muay Thai and Jiu-Jitsu techniques into the curriculum, working a lot of bag and target drills. Kata has been completely removed, leaving only the waza (short three-to-five step techniques) until Black Belt (at Shodan is when kata is taught now). I can’t say I am embracing the changes as it seems like the mindset is now “attack” instead of “defend.” It’s almost as if the message being sent is, “Don’t settle for defending yourself, instead always be looking for a fight.”

Even though I have studied for a decade, I am not about to say I have all the answers. Am I wrong to be so “passive” in my stance (heh… no pun intended) on fight training for myself? Am I being too timid? Should I embrace the more aggressive attitudes being presented me?

I don’t know… I just don’t.

I highlighted some words, because I'm not quit sure how you see "attack" or "defend"?
Or why you are associating Karate with "defend" and Muay Thai/Jiu Jitsu with "attack"?

Best is to lose those concepts and associations because they are wrong and in the long run they will hold you back in your evolution as a fighter or in the worst case make you quit an art that you like and that is a part of your life for over a decade.

In your present mindset "defend" = "counter-attack", yet a "counter-attack" is an "attack" and not a "defend" (heck, the words says it itself: "counter-attack").
A pure "defend" would just be blocking and/or redirecting incoming attacks, but this is not realistic or doable in a fight scenario.

In a self-defense/fight situation there's only one moment where the "attacker" and "defender" are defined, in the rest of the fight both become just "fighters", and that moment is the very beginning when one of the persons initiate the fight on a physical level (he becomes the "attacker").

Your Sensei is adding more fight proven techniques (through competition), strategies and mindset into your old curriculum while de-emphasizing Kata on the lower ranks, what is better for you and his other students in the long run.

Hope that this helps and enjoy the experience.

[Vieux Normand]

Much depends on situation.

I've spent much of my "professional" life in occupations where one of the more prominent tasks involve breaking up fights and getting the combatants off the premises.

In such situations, one must be cognizant of what degree of "attack" (if any) is legal. When we get younger, newer guys at any club I've worked, I remind them of two things: 1) they are always on camera (in addition to club-cam, bystanders whip out the smartphones as soon as voices get raised or glass breaks), and 2) never do anything you cannot justify to a judge if things wind up in court.

That means listening to all sort of provocation (short of death threats, which are actionable within reason) without suckerpunching the douchebags who make them--but being ready to act the nanosecond the provocation becomes more than verbal. Yes, that means regular alive-training and yes, that means you have to take the role of "attacker" when you spar and roll. As Riv pointed out, the best way to learn to deal with a potential adversary is to learn what he does and why.

I'm not aggressive by nature, but will react to any attack with enough legal force to end the attack and expel the attacker. Another doorman once told me that the world is not just predators and prey, it's not that simple: some of the "prey"--such as African cape buffalo--are very dangerous to any predator that attempts to take them down. Cape buffalo kill more lions than are killed by any other animal (including armed humans).

I've only competed when it was required for advancement. In a competition context, I might have made a good ref, but not a fighter...unless the situation I'm facing is actually dangerous, I'm just not aggresive. Some people are just like that, but that doesn't necessarily make them easy targets in a self-defense scenario.

[Inventor]

The more remote a budo form remains from sportive endeavor, the more positively it identifies with combat effectiveness and the classical tradition. The bugei (classical martial arts) are not sportive and thus a budo form interested in attaining or preserving combat efficiency must also avoid sportive endeavors of all kinds. A true fighting art cannot be practiced without concomitant element of danger, nor can it be brought to a practical conclusion without the spilling of blood. However, in order that it may be practiced at a time when there is lack of martial applications, training methods must be designed to
control it without reducing its combat values. Rules and regulations enabling a fighting art to become a competitive sport tend to reduce its combat effectiveness. With this watering- down process combat values weaken, often disappear, and elements unrelated to real combat creep into the exercise patterns.

The index of a true fighting art is seen in its training methods. A bugei or budo is a true combat system only if, it is practiced in kata form for the tactics and methods of such a system are such that no conclusion between opponents can be reached without resulting in injury or death.

[Devil]

The more remote a budo form remains from sportive endeavor, the more positively it identifies with combat effectiveness and the classical tradition. The bugei (classical martial arts) are not sportive and thus a budo form interested in attaining or preserving combat efficiency must also avoid sportive endeavors of all kinds. A true fighting art cannot be practiced without concomitant element of danger, nor can it be brought to a practical conclusion without the spilling of blood. However, in order that it may be practiced at a time when there is lack of martial applications, training methods must be designed to
control it without reducing its combat values. Rules and regulations enabling a fighting art to become a competitive sport tend to reduce its combat effectiveness. With this watering- down process combat values weaken, often disappear, and elements unrelated to real combat creep into the exercise patterns.

The index of a true fighting art is seen in its training methods. A bugei or budo is a true combat system only if, it is practiced in kata form for the tactics and methods of such a system are such that no conclusion between opponents can be reached without resulting in injury or death.

You know, I had quite a few years of traditional martial arts training. They gave me a cool black belt and errythang. I also have about a year and a half of BJJ training, which amounts to **** all in the BJJ hierarchy. If you want to talk about combat effectiveness, it's all silly talk unless you're discussing firearms. Everything else is just a game in comparison. But would you like to guess which piece of my training I'd rely on if forced to fight unarmed?

[Permalost]

The more remote a budo form remains from sportive endeavor, the more positively it identifies with combat effectiveness and the classical tradition. The bugei (classical martial arts) are not sportive and thus a budo form interested in attaining or preserving combat efficiency must also avoid sportive endeavors of all kinds. A true fighting art cannot be practiced without concomitant element of danger, nor can it be brought to a practical conclusion without the spilling of blood.

Seems like military leaders throughout history would disagree about "winning" being a part of warfare, and that conflict can only be decided through blood.

[doofaloofa]

Twan is right OP

Try out judo

[judojeff]

Wrong does not even begin to describe what you have just written. Judo, boxing (western or otherwise), BJJ, and wrestling all have strong sporting elements which aid in combat efficency. This is because the goal of the comp is not entirely divorced from the goal of combat. In a judo comp the goal is to throw with force and control, failing that it is to pin and submit. These are also sound strategies for a street situation.

Here is normally when someone I am talking to about judo goes "but turtleing on the street will get you killed!!". Well of course it will, and you know what every judo guy knows that cause we have common sense. Not every sporting tactic translates well to what you call a combat situation. However the ones that dont are easily spotted and everyone who trains the art knows what they are.

[Vieux Normand]

The more remote a budo form remains from sportive endeavor, the more positively it identifies with combat effectiveness and the classical tradition.

Crap. People expend real effort in trying to win. Pro fights or wars. Those who do not have that objective in mind--pro fight or war--will train to "harmonize with a partner" or some such thing that will get them stomped in a pro fight and/or killed in a war.

The bugei (classical martial arts) are not sportive and thus a budo form interested in attaining or preserving combat efficiency must also avoid sportive endeavors of all kinds.

"Classical Martial Arts" of where and when, by your inimitable estimation? Define "classical" for us please.

A true fighting art cannot be practiced without concomitant element of danger, nor can it be brought to a practical conclusion without the spilling of blood.

Participants in randori, free-sparring and rolling don't end up hurt and bleeding at some point? Really?

However, in order that it may be practiced at a time when there is lack of martial applications, training methods must be designed to control it without reducing its combat values.

An excellent description of many combat sports. Put the padding on and hit for real. You can even try it without the padding if you want.

Rules and regulations enabling a fighting art to become a competitive sport tend to reduce its combat effectiveness.

Yeah, 'cause there's no such thing as rules in warfare *cough*Geneva*cough*Convention*.

With this watering- down process combat values weaken, often disappear, and elements unrelated to real combat creep into the exercise patterns.

Which is why open-ruleset sparring, in a context such as Vale Tudo, is useful in attenuating and mitigating such effects.

The index of a true fighting art is seen in its training methods.

It is seen in how effectively its practitioner deals with fights. That's why it's called a "fighting art".

A bugei or budo is a true combat system only if, it is practiced in kata form for the tactics and methods of such a system are such that no conclusion between opponents can be reached without resulting in injury or death.

Bullshit. Kata are full of techniques that people have tried on me over the years with little or no harm done (except sometimes to themselves because they were only used to hitting air). Those same techniques can become effective when taken out of the kata and practised, first on bags and targets, then in drills featuring progressing levels of resistance on the part of a partner, then against a fully-resistant partner in open-ruleset sparring.

EDIT: I know, I know. But my lunch had an item in it that I don't usually eat, and the troll made sad-puppy eyes.

[Tetsumusha]

Kata are great and have a lot of value in them, but only when you drill the applications with a partner, and at that point you can visualize those applications when you practice solo. If those three- to five-technique sets you are doing come from kata then that is what you are doing--they've just taken applications out of the context of kata and put them into the context of a drill. If the sets you are doing are old-school yakusoku kumite type of sets then they probably don't have much value because they typically rely on unrealistic attacks and surface-level applications (hikite and te-uke are "chamber" positions, a punch is a punch, a block is a block and anything that looks weird has a totally useless explanation). If they are sparring related sets then you are probably just doing kickboxing in a gi, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it doesn't sound like that is what you want. As far as the bagwork and padwork go, you can still use those to train your self defense techniques--the heavy bag and a good partner to hold pads are plenty versatile enough for that.

My view on your situation is this; if the technique sets come from kata, then stick with it and keep practicing your kata on your own, and if your instructor really is turning your dojo into a kickboxing gym by making kata and self defense drills irrelevant then it doesn't sound like it's for you and you should find another dojo. I know a couple people in Colorado who train and teach different branches of Shorin-Ryu if you are interested in switching.

[SpamN'Cheese]

The more remote a budo form remains from sportive endeavor, the more positively it identifies with combat effectiveness and the classical tradition. The bugei (classical martial arts) are not sportive and thus a budo form interested in attaining or preserving combat efficiency must also avoid sportive endeavors of all kinds. A true fighting art cannot be practiced without concomitant element of danger, nor can it be brought to a practical conclusion without the spilling of blood. However, in order that it may be practiced at a time when there is lack of martial applications, training methods must be designed to
control it without reducing its combat values. Rules and regulations enabling a fighting art to become a competitive sport tend to reduce its combat effectiveness. With this watering- down process combat values weaken, often disappear, and elements unrelated to real combat creep into the exercise patterns.

The index of a true fighting art is seen in its training methods. A bugei or budo is a true combat system only if, it is practiced in kata form for the tactics and methods of such a system are such that no conclusion between opponents can be reached without resulting in injury or death.