Can Silat or Kuntao be practiced full speed at all?

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 7/26/2012 2:47pm

Originally Posted by danielsaun

Machette, thanks. I have done some limited research on FMA empty hand and it seems to focus on limb destruction do I have that right? Then once you destroy the limbs you attack the body. Like what Khajkimbo, sorry spelling, adapted from one of the founders that had an Arnis background.

The reason why I was drawn to FMA frankly, is it looked damn cool and effective in Bourne and Mission Impossible, I know its Movie Fu, but they are both using Kali in those movies I have been told. They angular attacks seem very efficient.

How long does it take to become proficient on avg. just learning empty hand FMA or whatever I should call it. Not even my guru's can agree and they have studied it. Some call it Arnis, some Kali, etc.

Ok, I'm going to try and answere these the best I can and I hope I don't sound stupid to some of the considerably more experienced Escrimadors on this site.

Limb destruction. In Eskabo Da'An we reffered to this as "de-fanging the snake". The concept is that you destroy the wepons witch are atacking you. A hand cannot hold a sword if you cut it in twain or crush it beyond recognition. A broken arm cannot be use to effectively punch you. A man with broken legs cannot chase you. It's not the "end all be all" of the art but "crippling" the attacker is a key ellement of every FMA style I've been exposed to. In Pambuan Arnis they would say "Wind, windows and wheels". Basically, Eyes, Lungs, Legs. Impairing these things impairs the fighter, badly.
I don't know what these would have been called among the various other styles I've done seminars with but they all were big on the idea in one way or another.

While what you see in the movies is "movie fu" the arts when applied offesnsively can be absolutely, terrifyingly, devastating. It's quick, it's really nasty, if (big IF) you know what your are doing it works like wicked voodoo. (This is true for MANY MA's though. I've met people who were more frightening with Silat or BJJ or Kajukenbo or whatever than I will ever be with FMA)

Angular attacks. Stepping of line is a fantastic fundamental and when used properly can definitely give you the upper hand. It's also EXCEEDINGLY difficult to accomplish against a determined opponent. I.E. one that will move to face you when you step offline. You must practice, practice, PRACTICE this with aliveness or it only works against drunks and children. Timing, footwork, and speed are absolutely key to weather on not you can actually get the angle you want.

Proficiency? What are you expecting to accomplish? If you want to become a masterfull scrapper with almost preturnatural sensitivity you're talking about a lifetime journey.

If you want to learn "Shank-fu" I can give you a ten minute anatomy lesson followed by a few basic techniques that will gurantee your petty assault beef turns into attempted murder or worse. Some of the NASTIEST techniques are also the some of the simplest and most direct. (I.E. parry / step offline / stab to the cerbellum. One move and a lifetime behind bars. )

While this approach makes little sense in our world and experience, it is a vestigial remnant from when these arts were used to train every one in the village (small women and children included) how to kill in a darn hurry to repell raiders.

So you can learn to murder in a day. You can get very good at MA through years of patient commitment.

As for 7#3 $7R337$? I've only had to commit what I know with real aggression a few times but it's worked more often than not. One time a witness even peed their pants a little because I floored someone faster than they could comprehend what was happening. FMA is NOT the only art that can take to that level. Also, technique drills alone will not take you there either.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/26/2012 5:39pm

Originally Posted by Mr. Machette

Ok, I'm going to try and answere these the best I can and I hope I don't sound stupid to some of the considerably more experienced Escrimadors on this site.

Limb destruction. In Eskabo Da'An we reffered to this as "de-fanging the snake". The concept is that you destroy the wepons witch are atacking you. A hand cannot hold a sword if you cut it in twain or crush it beyond recognition. A broken arm cannot be use to effectively punch you. A man with broken legs cannot chase you. It's not the "end all be all" of the art but "crippling" the attacker is a key ellement of every FMA style I've been exposed to. In Pambuan Arnis they would say "Wind, windows and wheels". Basically, Eyes, Lungs, Legs. Impairing these things impairs the fighter, badly.
I don't know what these would have been called among the various other styles I've done seminars with but they all were big on the idea in one way or another.

While what you see in the movies is "movie fu" the arts when applied offesnsively can be absolutely, terrifyingly, devastating. It's quick, it's really nasty, if (big IF) you know what your are doing it works like wicked voodoo. (This is true for MANY MA's though. I've met people who were more frightening with Silat or BJJ or Kajukenbo or whatever than I will ever be with FMA)

Angular attacks. Stepping of line is a fantastic fundamental and when used properly can definitely give you the upper hand. It's also EXCEEDINGLY difficult to accomplish against a determined opponent. I.E. one that will move to face you when you step offline. You must practice, practice, PRACTICE this with aliveness or it only works against drunks and children. Timing, footwork, and speed are absolutely key to weather on not you can actually get the angle you want.

Proficiency? What are you expecting to accomplish? If you want to become a masterfull scrapper with almost preturnatural sensitivity you're talking about a lifetime journey.

If you want to learn "Shank-fu" I can give you a ten minute anatomy lesson followed by a few basic techniques that will gurantee your petty assault beef turns into attempted murder or worse. Some of the NASTIEST techniques are also the some of the simplest and most direct. (I.E. parry / step offline / stab to the cerbellum. One move and a lifetime behind bars. )

While this approach makes little sense in our world and experience, it is a vestigial remnant from when these arts were used to train every one in the village (small women and children included) how to kill in a darn hurry to repell raiders.

So you can learn to murder in a day. You can get very good at MA through years of patient commitment.

As for 7#3 $7R337$? I've only had to commit what I know with real aggression a few times but it's worked more often than not. One time a witness even peed their pants a little because I floored someone faster than they could comprehend what was happening. FMA is NOT the only art that can take to that level. Also, technique drills alone will not take you there either.

Thanks much I was trying to give you are good rating, and instead I gave my thread one, there's one for me the noob. I guess I will call the local FMA school and ask them how long proficiency in hand to hand FMA would take. I hope they say about a year. I just want learn no BS self defense that works. I am not looking to kill unless necessary. My current Silat guru already showed me that, how to take a neck crank to a break. Unless crime got much worse I would probably never even carry a knife so that's why I am focused on mano to mano. Its funny though everyone in our school carries a knife.

Check out this guy practicing Arnis de mano he is the best I have seen. I want to learn how to move like that but frankly don't know if I have the time/commitment level to ever be close to this.

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 7/26/2012 6:13pm

Well the guys in that video are instructors so getting as "natural" as they are takes a looooooong time. That smoothness and confidence only comes from endless repetition over years.

However, a year to get that fast and precise isn't impossible. I know a guy who achieved an advanced instructor level in two years. He wokred at least two hours of EVERY day for those two years. Your goal isn't out of reach but it does take a very high level of commitment to practice.

As for getting good at street fighting? The only way to do that is to fight. Fight hard and fight often. This is why sparring is so important to development. It's the closest you can get to banging in a safe and controled environment. All the sweet compliance dance moves in the world won't win a fight. The ONLY fight I've lost since I started in FMA was one where I tried to apply technique as it was practiced in drills. (Kool aide hurts) The ones I came out ahead on would not resemble "martial arts" if you had seen them.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/26/2012 6:24pm

Originally Posted by Mr. Machette

Well the guys in that video are instructors so getting as "natural" as they are takes a looooooong time. That smoothness and confidence only comes from endless repetition over years.

However, a year to get that fast and precise isn't impossible. I know a guy who achieved an advanced instructor level in two years. He wokred at least two hours of EVERY day for those two years. Your goal isn't out of reach but it does take a very high level of commitment to practice.

As for getting good at street fighting? The only way to do that is to fight. Fight hard and fight often. This is why sparring is so important to development. It's the closest you can get to banging in a safe and controled environment. All the sweet compliance dance moves in the world won't win a fight. The ONLY fight I've lost since I started in FMA was one where I tried to apply technique as it was practiced in drills. (Kool aide hurts) The ones I came out ahead on would not resemble "martial arts" if you had seen them.

You are right to have to fight to get good at it. I don't look for fights and haven't had an altercation in about a month that was just **** talking that almost went to blows. I never look for a fight but won't back down much. I guess I should start looking for a Silat, FMA, or SD that spars and pressure test. No silat school I have heard of does this, it too deadly to do that from Silat people. You are right stepping offline is good but I am practicing against a compliant partner not good. It seems the more research I do there are only 3 MA's that spar/pressure test. Boxing, MMA, and Krav. Can someone name another or post a vid?

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 7/26/2012 8:31pm

Originally Posted by danielsaun

It seems the more research I do there are only 3 MA's that spar/pressure test. Boxing, MMA, and Krav. Can someone name another or post a vid?

You kidding? Do Judo.

I'm seriously considering getting into it myself.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 7/26/2012 8:42pm

Originally Posted by danielsaun

It seems the more research I do there are only 3 MA's that spar/pressure test. Boxing, MMA, and Krav. Can someone name another or post a vid?

Well, krav doesn't always spar- some/many are in the "too deadly" camp. Among other arts that do spar: tae kwon do, kyokushin and its variants (enshin, daido juku), lethwei, muay thai, FMA (some, not all), wrestling in all its forms (freestyle, Greco Roman, SAMBO, ssirium, dambe, etc), JKD (all in theory, some in practice), kendo, WMA...

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/26/2012 9:42pm

Originally Posted by Mr. Machette

You kidding? Do Judo.

I'm seriously considering getting into it myself.

I will look into but I have moderate back problems and need to be able to walk the next day for outside sales.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/26/2012 9:43pm

Thanks much Perm.

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 7/26/2012 11:16pm

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I will look into but I have moderate back problems and need to be able to walk the next day for outside sales.

Ouch. I hear ya man. You gotta take care of yourself. FMA is probably a good fit then. It can be practiced as low impact as you want and doesn't have to be rough on the ol' joints.

**Tiga** · Posted On: 7/27/2012 3:34am

Danielsan,

Perhaps it helps to get realistic with your goals, and it sounds you're going in that direction. The silat road is perhaps not for you, just takes too long. There are plenty of other MA that might fit you better. But remember the Silat you practice might not be that bad at all if the teacher has a very strict goal in learning you all the stuff. My teacher just focuses mainly on proper hitting and kicking the first year. No multiple opponents, or more difficult side-attacks, from the back etc, against knives etc. That stuff comes later.

The fact that you don't like that he is only covering frontal attacks... hmm perhaps you have to crawl before you can walk, walk before you can run. I also cling very much to the basics, the stronger the basics, the better your potential. 3 months is like nothing MA wise. The teacher barely gets to remember your name in this short period. To be honest, if a student after 3 months of training is trying to correct my way of teaching, i tell him to know his place and trust on my experience or better to move on to another style which offers quick gratification.

I hope you can find what you are looking for, but set your goals realistically. If you want fluid practice like the Arnis de Mano guy, you will be disappointed if you think that you can be like that within one year of training.

Everybody wants to move like bruce lee but only some want to but that amount of time and effort in it.