Can Silat or Kuntao be practiced full speed at all?

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 7/20/2012 1:59am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I agree and hopefully I can encourage the school to make some of those changes.

It's disrespectful to mess around during class hours. Might want to hook up with your training partners in your spare time to preasure test.

**ashkelon** · Posted On: 7/20/2012 5:12am

you seem to be thinking a lot in krav scenarios..

if your teachers don't work at higher speeds / full resistance, even if they would want to adapt to the input of a noob, they wouldn't want be very qualified.
pressure testing off hours has the same problem: no qualified instructor.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/20/2012 1:41pm

Originally Posted by ashkelon

you seem to be thinking a lot in krav scenarios..

if your teachers don't work at higher speeds / full resistance, even if they would want to adapt to the input of a noob, they wouldn't want be very qualified.
pressure testing off hours has the same problem: no qualified instructor.

I just think krav has some good scenario based training, but I don't like some of things I saw at the trial class, ie. not enough protection for training at high speed and expensive 6 month contract. I am quickly realizing that researching has some merit, but then you have to go check it out. It just takes a lot of time to actually experience it so I have to rely on internet research from time to time and personal anecdotes.

**Southpaw** · Posted On: 7/20/2012 5:56pm

Originally Posted by danielsaun

I have just started taking Silat, really an MMA, mixed Silat with WC for the last couple of months. I am not going to name my current school as I am considering leaving for several reasons, one of which is we are told we practice slow with proper form and flow so that no one gets hurt. When I ask my instructor can't we pad up and blast like Krav Maga does he says no there is no need your body will react instinctively much faster in a SD situation automatically. I don't believe that because we are focused on Silat for SD and dealing with adrenal stress is a big part of SD.

I believe I recall reading on Bob Orlando's website there is no full speed sparing for the same reasoning. I guess I don't understand how Silat or Kuntao can be so deadly that it could kill a full padded guy with head gear unless we are doing the neck breaks. I know it's tv but I watched all of the Silat I could see on Human Weapon and Nat Geo and unless they are doing neck breaks or knives a well protected partner should be fine against my attack.

I really think that I need scenario based training its more realistic, not slow speed drills with a partner.

Hopefully Kuntao kid is lurking around here or another more experienced Silat practioner.

TIA

Dude if you "just started" taking Silat...I'm not surprised they don't want you to train full speed and contact yet. That's not strange. Plus...are you saying full contact w/ knives?

Are you training w/ Uncle and/or Keith?

**jspeedy** · Posted On: 7/20/2012 6:34pm

Originally Posted by danielsaun

Since we are an SD school based primarily off of Silat, we don't train with weapons. We only train empty hand like Stevan Plinck does in some of his YT vids. And we only train at slow speed so that at bit frustrating for me. I have been doing the same drills slow for almost 3 months. I say we chip buy some good protective gear and spar at a faster speed.

I am equally interested in learning FMA but I feel that I don't have the time commitment and/or coordination. I could memorize the limb destruction drills but I had a chance to do stick drills Arnis de mano this weekend and the footwork was complicated to me. But that was only 1 hour of practice. I like FMA and Silat because when I have asked around people felt on the internet, I know, that they were more effective for SD than traditional karate or TKD, no disrespect to those MA's.

For FMA don't worry if you don't have the coordination that will come with time. The footwork varies from system. In Balintawak the footwork is simple in other systems more thought is given to it.

As mentioned it's a little disrespectful to buy gear and bring it to class and ask to spar. If they don't already spar I wouldn't expect them to start just because you say so. If you want to spar go find a school that does don't try to change your school. If you insist on sparring your liable to get your ass kicked by the instructor. Or perhaps your school doesn't spar because you have a lot of newbs and the instructor wants the group to develop some fundamentals first.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/20/2012 10:18pm

Originally Posted by jspeedy

For FMA don't worry if you don't have the coordination that will come with time. The footwork varies from system. In Balintawak the footwork is simple in other systems more thought is given to it.

As mentioned it's a little disrespectful to buy gear and bring it to class and ask to spar. If they don't already spar I wouldn't expect them to start just because you say so. If you want to spar go find a school that does don't try to change your school. If you insist on sparring your liable to get your ass kicked by the instructor. Or perhaps your school doesn't spar because you have a lot of newbs and the instructor wants the group to develop some fundamentals first.

Thanks you misunderstood me. I am just hoping to open a dialogue with the school about sparring with pads. I am the only new student, we are extremely small school 5 guys and all have 1-5 years at that school. Additionally, they other students cross train but don't want to be disrespectful to our guru and discuss that. I am just looking to spar against other students what's the point in sparring against an MA with 28 years with my total of maybe 5 months in my life. Of course he will kick my ass. I guess what I want is just harder contact on drills but with some padding. I don't know if that make sense lol. I find myself not sparring hard enough because I am afraid to hurt my partner and they say come in harder, not blast though. I am afraid to do that to my emotional instructor because if I hit him he may break me in two because he is a bit unbalanced at times. The other instructor no problem. And frankly I am just probably being too concerned and nice about accidentally hurting my training partner. I feel my training would improve because I would be less concerned about hurting my partner and getting hurt. Does that make sense? I don't know what is an appropriate amount of force to hit unpadded and frankly I have been hit too hard on a couple of occasions. I had a guy knife hand chopping and I kept telling to ease up to the point of where I was about ready to eye gouge him just to prove a point.

I appreciate the point on FMA I may take a trial class there is a good looking FMA in downtown Denver http://coloradofcs.blogspot.com/

Can I ask what form of FMA is best for empty hand? I am not interested in being the next Dog Bros and I don't buy that sticks are readily available for SD. My whole point is SD not MA for MA and fun, if that comes with it then great, but SD is the goal. I am not walking with a cane and have never seen a bastone in the street or anything similar. A lot of the wood I see in the streets isn't suitable for wielding like a bastone. It jagged with nails and crap not something I want to grip in my hands and swing away with.

I do outside sales and have to look professional so at this point I am just interested in open hand, no knives, guns, collapsible staffs, etc. I was honestly interested in FMA because it looks so effective and efficient and you do the same move with/without the bastone so that makes a lot of sense.

**Tiga** · Posted On: 7/26/2012 9:26am

With all due respect but three months of training is like nothing to learn a style properly. If you want instant gratification I would opt for MT, MMA or KravMaga. Simple basics and immediate sparring from day one.

If you want to learn a certain more principle based style properly it will take you more than one year to get decent basics. If that's too much, better switch to something else.

After a year of basics sparring might be done more safely since you have more control over your movements.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/26/2012 10:16am

Originally Posted by Tiga

With all due respect but three months of training is like nothing to learn a style properly. If you want instant gratification I would opt for MT, MMA or KravMaga. Simple basics and immediate sparring from day one.

If you want to learn a certain more principle based style properly it will take you more than one year to get decent basics. If that's too much, better switch to something else.

After a year of basics sparring might be done more safely since you have more control over your movements.

I am not looking for instant gratification, I just want quick and effective SD skills. That's what our school teaches with a basis in Silat.

KM actually had some good things on the trial class, but it was very expensive, and confusing at times, ie. trying to ask some basic questions with the music blasting. Some things in the KM class were flat out dangerous IMO. Blasting away at 100% with small pads and sloppy combos because you are exhausted from the pace. I got pretty banged up and have had ppl in KM tell me they get hurt on semi regular basis because people get sloppy with their drils and bang someone hard by accident. It's like our school we move so slow most of the time I don't' think its effective and then you have the KM school blasting 100% from day one which is not good. A middle ground is needed.

I am actually looking at learning Senshido Shredder as its affordable and appears to work well. I am not looking for aesthetic value I just want to be able to get down and dirty quickly to defend myself and my family. I am not looking to turn this into a hobby at this point.

The thing I don't know if I believe in is our Silat guru, whom I will leave nameless because I am trying to work out some issues with the school is this focus on grace and relaxation until the point of impact. That just seems esoteric and unrealistic in a real SD scenario to me. Even the guys whom have been going there for awhile only pressure test occasionally, and never against another style. I think what I have see would work against avg street thug but not against a BJJ blue belt or higher.

So far I have learned to move offline from attack, some basic defense and attacks, so it has been helpful. Its just very 1 dimensional in that we only practice attacks from front on attack. But they are trying to teach me Silat stuff without going into the triangle work that I see traditional Pencak Silat doing so its no wonder I don't understand where move someone they have left some gaping holes in their instruction IMO. Teaching me about center line without the core parts of Silat like the triangle work is leaving half of it out.

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 7/26/2012 11:47am

Originally Posted by danielsaun

Can I ask what form of FMA is best for empty hand? I am not interested in being the next Dog Bros and I don't buy that sticks are readily available for SD.

Danielsaun, don't you know? "Everything is a stick".

Most FMA schools are fairly comprehensive. While the stick is the most well known and common training tool seen in FMA it is NOT the only thing you learn to use.

Focus tends to be on "anlges of attack" and not necesarily the item you are attacking with. Variations on technique come from adapting your angles to different weapons. Be it hands feet knees and 'bows, a whip or a rock you just picked up of the ground.

Specific unarmed FMA disciplines are Dumog (very nasty, sneaky grappling) and Panaktukan (FMA Fisticuffs). *eta: Mano E' Mano (also FMA fisticuffs, usually with grappling elements)

I haave yet to train with any FMA instructors that did not include both of these elements as part of the curiculum. While there ARE specialists in both of those arts, techniques and principles from both Dumog and Panaktukan are an integral part of every FMA school I've ever trained with. Even when playing with sticks and knives you still use your boxing and grappling skills. Yes, you heard that. You will grapple with knives. It's ugly. That's why they practice with wood.

FMA, at least as I've learned it, really is a type of "MMA". "FMA is only for weapons" is a common missconception passed around by people who have never actually done much FMA.

And yes, it does work "on the street" in my experience as long as you are actually "fighting" with it and not dancing like when you do drills. The fights I've "won" using what I know were all empty hand. Your mileage may vary.

danielsaun · Posted On: 7/26/2012 1:32pm

Machette, thanks. I have done some limited research on FMA empty hand and it seems to focus on limb destruction do I have that right? Then once you destroy the limbs you attack the body. Like what Khajkimbo, sorry spelling, adapted from one of the founders that had an Arnis background.

The reason why I was drawn to FMA frankly, is it looked damn cool and effective in Bourne and Mission Impossible, I know its Movie Fu, but they are both using Kali in those movies I have been told. They angular attacks seem very efficient.

How long does it take to become proficient on avg. just learning empty hand FMA or whatever I should call it. Not even my guru's can agree and they have studied it. Some call it Arnis, some Kali, etc.