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  1. danielsaun

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 10:56pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Can Silat or Kuntao be practiced full speed at all?

    I have just started taking Silat, really an MMA, mixed Silat with WC for the last couple of months. I am not going to name my current school as I am considering leaving for several reasons, one of which is we are told we practice slow with proper form and flow so that no one gets hurt. When I ask my instructor can't we pad up and blast like Krav Maga does he says no there is no need your body will react instinctively much faster in a SD situation automatically. I don't believe that because we are focused on Silat for SD and dealing with adrenal stress is a big part of SD.

    I believe I recall reading on Bob Orlando's website there is no full speed sparing for the same reasoning. I guess I don't understand how Silat or Kuntao can be so deadly that it could kill a full padded guy with head gear unless we are doing the neck breaks. I know it's tv but I watched all of the Silat I could see on Human Weapon and Nat Geo and unless they are doing neck breaks or knives a well protected partner should be fine against my attack.

    I really think that I need scenario based training its more realistic, not slow speed drills with a partner.

    Hopefully Kuntao kid is lurking around here or another more experienced Silat practioner.

    TIA
  2. Robdogg is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2012 3:06am


     Style: JKD, BJJ, FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by danielsaun View Post
    I have just started taking Silat, really an MMA, mixed Silat with WC for the last couple of months. I am not going to name my current school as I am considering leaving for several reasons, one of which is we are told we practice slow with proper form and flow so that no one gets hurt. When I ask my instructor can't we pad up and blast like Krav Maga does he says no there is no need your body will react instinctively much faster in a SD situation automatically. I don't believe that because we are focused on Silat for SD and dealing with adrenal stress is a big part of SD.

    I believe I recall reading on Bob Orlando's website there is no full speed sparing for the same reasoning. I guess I don't understand how Silat or Kuntao can be so deadly that it could kill a full padded guy with head gear unless we are doing the neck breaks. I know it's tv but I watched all of the Silat I could see on Human Weapon and Nat Geo and unless they are doing neck breaks or knives a well protected partner should be fine against my attack.

    I really think that I need scenario based training its more realistic, not slow speed drills with a partner.

    Hopefully Kuntao kid is lurking around here or another more experienced Silat practioner.

    TIA
    All of the things you listed sound like huge red flags to me. If your instructor thinks that his techniques are too deadly to spar with, or he thinks that your body will instinctively transition from slow, compliant drills to a full-contact scenario, you probably don't want to stick around the school.

    Edit: Also, welcome to Bullshido. You should make your own thread in newbietown (don't just copy and paste this thread; talk a little bit about yourself and your previous experience in the martial arts, if any), as that subforum has pretty good traffic.
  3. danielsaun

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/19/2012 9:05am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks, and I will post in the newbie forum
  4. Permalost is offline
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

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    Nov 2012
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    San Diego
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    Posted On:
    7/19/2012 11:12am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was taught that the main tools of the kuntao arsenal are palms (including knife hand), elbows and knees. Can these be trained at full speed? Well, they certainly are in muay thai, MMA, kyokushin, lethwei etc.
  5. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
    Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs's Avatar

    fist first Philosopher

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    Sanctuary of Pallas Athena (Belgium)
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    Posted On:
    7/19/2012 1:57pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would add to Permalost point that inside footsweeps that force your opponent to do a split are a part of La Boxe Française-Savate sparring and are performed at full speed with shoes on.
    It's not a problem at all.

    I've seen that same technique in Guro Dan Inosanto's Maphilindo Silat, but only performed in drills.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  6. KendalGuro is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2012 5:18pm


     Style: Arnis de Mano

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In any silat you start slow to learn the movements, but you then should go faster. Everything should be about speed and power. You fight like you practice, if all you do is pantomime, your not going to have much success with it in a fight. If you have never hit or kicked someone with force, you are going to fall off balance when you do. The longer a student has trained the faster and harder they should be hitting and getting hit. There is no reason why you can’t establish some basic rules, and spar, pads or no pads. If an art is "too deadly" to do this, I would definitely throw a flag.

    If you're in Colorado you should check out Guru Daniel Prasetya, Inti Ombak Pencak Silat
    I hear good things.
  7. jspeedy is offline
    jspeedy's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/19/2012 9:38pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think some good points have been raised thus far. I'm not entirely familiar with silat so I'll reply from an FMA skillset. As far as weapons go I think there is a fundamental difference between weapons training and empty hand. For weapons (and perhaps empty hand) you first have to be able to control the weapon. With a weapon I feel it is better to have good form and power than to be fast. Don't be discouraged if your instructor makes you take it easy at first, with a weapon if you have good form you won't have to be as fast.

    As mentioned, empty hand is a different story elbows, knees, ect are practiced at live speeds regularly. I don't know if these techniques are first trained as fast as possible in MMA/MT perhaps these guys first go slower and build up to full speed and full resistance.
  8. danielsaun

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/19/2012 10:51pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    I think some good points have been raised thus far. I'm not entirely familiar with silat so I'll reply from an FMA skillset. As far as weapons go I think there is a fundamental difference between weapons training and empty hand. For weapons (and perhaps empty hand) you first have to be able to control the weapon. With a weapon I feel it is better to have good form and power than to be fast. Don't be discouraged if your instructor makes you take it easy at first, with a weapon if you have good form you won't have to be as fast.

    As mentioned, empty hand is a different story elbows, knees, ect are practiced at live speeds regularly. I don't know if these techniques are first trained as fast as possible in MMA/MT perhaps these guys first go slower and build up to full speed and full resistance.
    Since we are an SD school based primarily off of Silat, we don't train with weapons. We only train empty hand like Stevan Plinck does in some of his YT vids. And we only train at slow speed so that at bit frustrating for me. I have been doing the same drills slow for almost 3 months. I say we chip buy some good protective gear and spar at a faster speed.

    I am equally interested in learning FMA but I feel that I don't have the time commitment and/or coordination. I could memorize the limb destruction drills but I had a chance to do stick drills Arnis de mano this weekend and the footwork was complicated to me. But that was only 1 hour of practice. I like FMA and Silat because when I have asked around people felt on the internet, I know, that they were more effective for SD than traditional karate or TKD, no disrespect to those MA's.
    Last edited by danielsaun; 7/19/2012 10:55pm at .
  9. Mr. Machette is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2012 12:02am

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You've got to do something at full power and speed sometimes or you never get proficient at utilizing well, you know, full power and speed.

    Slow drills are great for learning the motion but you still need to hit a bag or something to develop power. And you've got to play against a live oponent to get used to hiting targets that move around, hit back and apply strategy against you.
  10. danielsaun

    Guest

    Posted On:
    7/20/2012 1:06am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    You've got to do something at full power and speed sometimes or you never get proficient at utilizing well, you know, full power and speed.

    Slow drills are great for learning the motion but you still need to hit a bag or something to develop power. And you've got to play against a live oponent to get used to hiting targets that move around, hit back and apply strategy against you.
    I agree and hopefully I can encourage the school to make some of those changes. I will chip in for some gear so we can get better training. Frankly most of our defense are stepping offline forward with a left hand block/perry/slap coming through with a strong right/combo to neck/ face against a straight right punch. We need to train for different scenarios IMO. Not everyone is coming straight with a right, esp if it were my wife being attacked. Some SD counterattacks from behind attack and chokes would be good.
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