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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 8:12am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your comment needs to be cited because you have just sourced a Shaolin Temple type myth. It is this type of crap that leads people too have to apologize for posting aikido stuff. Oh and LOL@YMAS complaining.

    You'd have more of a point if it was in the JMA forum, where the aikido threads tend to run their course with little to no interference. Yes, even when the threads containing the "woo woo" and "hippie tai chi" sounding arguments.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 7/18/2012 8:39am at .
  2. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 8:35am

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    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    I'm not sure exactly what kind of citation you are looking for. For immediate appeasement here is an excerpt from the Aikido Association of North America, the branch of Yoshinkan aikido started by Yukio Yutada. I don't belong to that group, but it was one of the first things that popped up on my search engine that I recognized as a reputable source. This corroborates the information that was presented to me by my organization. Meanwhile I will see if I can't locate some sort of peer-reviewed or scholarly journal as a source. There is more information linking samurai families to the development of aikido, through the Takeda family (Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu). Its an interesting history, but I will just quote the related subject matter and provide a link to the source for those interested.


    "It is difficult to speak with certainty about the very early history of Aikido. Tradition suggests that it is possible to trace back the origins of Aikido to Prince Teijun, the sixth son of the Japanese Emperor Seiwa (850-880 A.D.).

    However, the first important figure in the history of Aikido was a descendant of Prince Teijun, Minamoto no Yoshimitsu, who lived from 1037 to 1127. Yoshimitsu was the third son in a family already famous for its military accomplishments. His father was a general in the service of the Emperor. The most illustrious member of Yoshimitsu's family was his older brother Yoshiie, who commanded a number of notable victories chronicled in the "Tale of Mutsu." In a famous incident in 1082, during the Gosannen War, the two brothers joined forces to attack Kanazawa Castle. Yoshimitsu noticed a disturbance in the flight pattern of wild geese overhead and thus avoided riding into ambush.

    Though Yoshimitsu never achieved the renown of his older brother, he distinguished himself as a warrior. He excelled in spear, sword and unarmed techniques, as well as in archery. At this point in the development of Japanese military arts, mounted archery was considered more important than swordsmanship. It is notable that the two schools of mounted archery which survive into modern times (Takeda Ryu and Ogasawara Ryu), both trace their origin back to Minamoto no Yoshimitsu.

    It is said that Yoshimitsu dissected cadavers to increase his understanding of the workings of bone, muscle and connective tissues. From this research he added to his repertoire of unarmed techniques, then called "Tai Jutsu."

    Yoshimitsu's second son moved to the mountainous Kai region of Japan, and founded a new clan with the name Takeda. The Takedas ruled Kai during the breakdown of imperial power and the centuries of war which followed, becoming one of the few ruling families to survive the transition from the era of the shugo, the governor legitimated by the emperor, to the era of the daimyo, the independent feudal lord. During this unsettled period, the Takedas refined the techniques handed down from Yoshimitsu in the face of constant warfare. A manuscript dating from around 1580, written by one of the Takeda family retainers, illustrates techniques which are recognizable to today's Aikido practitioners."

    http://www.doshinkan-aikido.org/aikido/history/
    Reputable souce!?!?! He even questions its own validity.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

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    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  3. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 8:57am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The point of the particular citation I provided was to identify the lack of direct evidence linking Teijun directly to aikido technical development...as well as identify the link between "scientific" study of anatomy to develop tai jutsu, which was eventually handed down, through family, to the clan who would develop aikijujitsu. A lot of people make claims such as "Prince Teijun developed Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu," which is unclear and not really accurate. Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yoshimitsu was attributed as having dissected cadavers for the sake of learning more about anatomy...according to legend. As with all history, unless you were there, you are relying on hearsay whether oral or written.

    To get back to the point of the thread, I thought it interesting to see things come full circle and to thank the OP for the documentation.
  4. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 9:13am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    Reputable souce!?!?! He even questions its own validity.
    Thank you for the additional input. However I think it important to understand that actual excerpt:

    This statement:

    "It is difficult to speak with certainty about the very early history of Aikido. Tradition suggests that it is possible to trace back the origins of Aikido to Prince Teijun, the sixth son of the Japanese Emperor Seiwa (850-880 A.D.)."

    ...refers to the information about Prince Teijun being unclear, which I wanted to identify rather than hide.

    This statement:

    "However, the first important figure in the history of Aikido was a descendant of Prince Teijun, Minamoto no Yoshimitsu, who lived from 1037 to 1127.... "

    ...refers to the person attributed to dissecting corpses to study the human body. I don't know what kind of proof would satisfy those who are curious, but I'm not finding anything other than from aikido websites, jujutsu websites, Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu websites, or wikipedia. Please disregard or delete my post if deemed too much of a distraction from the original post...as it wasn't my intent to hijack the thread, as it has now become.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 9:18am

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    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    The point of the particular citation I provided was to identify the lack of direct evidence linking Teijun directly to aikido technical development...as well as identify the link between "scientific" study of anatomy to develop tai jutsu, which was eventually handed down, through family, to the clan who would develop aikijujitsu. A lot of people make claims such as "Prince Teijun developed Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu," which is unclear and not really accurate. Shinra Saburo Minamoto no Yoshimitsu was attributed as having dissected cadavers for the sake of learning more about anatomy...according to legend.
    Thanks for the clarification because, it was neither implied nor suggested at all in this post or the follow up.
    Anyway, it is my understanding the techniques that eventually trickled their way into aikido were originally designed by a member of the Japanese royalty basically doing the same thing
    You know how this sounds, like you believe the myth/legend. Unless you were there? Hey, you weren't there, but it was your "understanding" that made people ask for a source. Yes, you implied that you believed this explanation.
  6. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 9:22am

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     Style: Kakutogi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    Thank you for the additional input. However I think it important to understand that actual excerpt:

    This statement:

    "It is difficult to speak with certainty about the very early history of Aikido. Tradition suggests that it is possible to trace back the origins of Aikido to Prince Teijun, the sixth son of the Japanese Emperor Seiwa (850-880 A.D.)."

    ...refers to the information about Prince Teijun being unclear, which I wanted to identify rather than hide.

    This statement:

    "However, the first important figure in the history of Aikido was a descendant of Prince Teijun, Minamoto no Yoshimitsu, who lived from 1037 to 1127.... "

    ...refers to the person attributed to dissecting corpses to study the human body. I don't know what kind of proof would satisfy those who are curious, but I'm not finding anything other than from aikido websites, jujutsu websites, Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu websites, or wikipedia. Please disregard or delete my post if deemed too much of a distraction from the original post...as it wasn't my intent to hijack the thread, as it has now become.
    When you present something like that expect people to question. I lived and train in Japan for 9 years total and eventhough the Japanese are good are recording things they are also good at telling tall tales. They will also use the same themes over and over. It is plausible that the story is true but also plausible it is not. So when you say:
    Anyway, it is my understanding the techniques that eventually trickled their way into aikido were originally designed by a member of the Japanese royalty basically doing the same thing
    There will be skeptics and websites aren't really going to satisfy them.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  7. daishi is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 9:23am


     Style: Aikido/JJJ/Judo/GoJu Ryu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I see how that was perceived. Sorry if I sounded like I was coming from an authoritative point of view, that was not my intent. I definitely didn't mean to imply that, just thought I'd add an interesting and related tidbit of info...like on the bottom of a Snapple cap, but without the vetting.

    I know very well about Japanese storytelling and legend, I train in aikido after all, and its something we sometimes laugh about. When compared to dodging bullets and handing knives to Yakuza attackers to test martial skill, I figure dissecting corpses to study anatomy and apply to technique as being more believable by comparison...though I in no way know for sure.
    Last edited by daishi; 7/18/2012 9:31am at .
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 9:24am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No worries. It makes more sense now.
  9. RWaggs is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 9:49am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by daishi View Post
    I'm not sure exactly what kind of citation you are looking for. For immediate appeasement here is an excerpt from the Aikido Association of North America, the branch of Yoshinkan aikido started by Yukio Yutada. I don't belong to that group, but it was one of the first things that popped up on my search engine that I recognized as a reputable source. This corroborates the information that was presented to me by my organization. Meanwhile I will see if I can't locate some sort of peer-reviewed or scholarly journal as a source. There is more information linking samurai families to the development of aikido, through the Takeda family (Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu). Its an interesting history, but I will just quote the related subject matter and provide a link to the source for those interested.


    "It is difficult to speak with certainty about the very early history of Aikido. Tradition suggests that it is possible to trace back the origins of Aikido to Prince Teijun, the sixth son of the Japanese Emperor Seiwa (850-880 A.D.).

    However, the first important figure in the history of Aikido was a descendant of Prince Teijun, Minamoto no Yoshimitsu......
    Yeah, we pretty much had to learn this back in the day as one of the requirements for passing my first belt test in Aikijutsu.

    ....but it should be noted that my instructor was clear that much of this could be unfounded legend, and that this was more about the tradition of learning this story than anything else.
    Last edited by RWaggs; 7/18/2012 9:53am at .
  10. realjanuary is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 12:04pm


     Style: Aikido, bits of jits

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I attended a seminar with Greg Olsen sensei a year or two ago when he was in Ireland. I really enjoyed it. On top of his skill as a practitioner, he is also a good teacher and very pleasent man.

    His articles can be found on his dojo page if you don't have access to the journal(link to Big Sky aikido) (the site uses frames, go the the "our sensei" page and scroll down to get the links).

    There are different things with the same name, and the same thing sometimes has different names. The description of the locks in these papers are descriptions of how Olsen applies them. I have felt different versions that would fall outside this description.
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