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  1. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 3:21pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I was amazed how he managed to miss a full sized target, with its back turned to him, from no more than 6 feet away whilst standing still.
    You'd probably be surprised how common that is. Unlike H2H fighting where minor mistakes might not cost you much in shooting it could me a world of difference.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

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    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  2. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 3:47pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why are we still arguing over semantics? I already explained what I mean by 'effective.' If you shot someone in a firefight and he was still had pretty good capability to fight/shoot back, do you call that an effective shot? You know full well what I meant and I know what you meant. The results of the incident is not being disputed.

    I won't really argue how it would go down in a firefight or even in a situation where the other guy isn't firing back. I've never been in one, so I'll take your word for granted. I still think I'd have done a lot better at a target that close, but that is actually pretty irrelevant and I am 100% sure my performance will suck compared to what I can do at a range or at competitions.
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  3. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 4:05pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is the report i was thinking of, i was a little low but not much.
    Old man still did better than the average NYPD officer involved in a gun fight.
    Granted being in uniform pretty much identifies you as being armed, old guy was at a slight advantage there.
    Page 4 is where the officer hit rates stuff starts.
    Page 7 has the distance related stats.
    Old man beat them all.
    http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

    I've seen other studies where officers did as well as 60%, but those were the highest i can recall.
  4. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 4:07pm

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    [QUOTE=dwkfym;2706222]
    Why are we still arguing over semantics? I already explained what I mean by 'effective.
    I didn't read your explanation.

    If you shot someone in a firefight and he was still had pretty good capability to fight/shoot back, do you call that an effective shot? You know full well what I meant and I know what you meant.
    You are assuming I knew what you meant as stated above I didn't read your explanation. MY explanation is much better in that he was effective enough to deal with the situation and survive. He struck his target and caused them to flee and he and his wife were out of danger. Therefore and effective shot, period. If his goal was to actually kill the person, which I don't think it was he just wanted to protect his wife, then that would be another matter.

    The results of the incident is not being disputed
    Yet you played the What if game.
    I won't really argue how it would go down in a firefight or even in a situation where the other guy isn't firing back. I've never been in one, so I'll take your word for granted.
    Then shush and listen.

    I still think I'd have done a lot better at a target that close, but that is actually pretty irrelevant and I am 100% sure my performance will suck compared to what I can do at a range or at competitions
    You HOPE you do better. Again if you never been in a real life or death situation with firearms you can't really say how you will do. Fist fighting and fire fights are very different. As I state before fear and adrenaline can play havoc on marksmanship skills.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  5. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 4:34pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I played the what if game, clearly stated that its a what if game, and its undisputed that more firearms training is completely beneficial, and is it disputed at all that the two shots would have been efficient (in your definition) if he was someone, say, who actually intended to kill anyone who got in the perps way? That is my point here. The perps here obviously didn't get to talk the talk, like you said someone who would lack street cred. 'What if' game or not, that fact remains true; in many other situations the old man's performance would not have been good enough. I still stand by my 'practice more' comment and it has a place in this thread. No need to criticize it. Obviously I still commend the old man for taking the risk and bringing his weapon into the fight, which might be a lot more than what most people would do in that situation.

    As far as my "wah wah I'll do better than that old man" comment I basically can't back that up with anything and defer that to you. i.e. you've convinced me on that and the best thing I can do is, well, go practice some more.

    I got a genuine question though; In a real first-time firefight, how much performance can be expected to decrease? What about you personally? I'm sure it varies from person to person but I am wondering if that can be quantified at all. I read that as long as the shooter remembered to pick up the front sight they actually do pretty well, but that most shootings people do not remember using the sights at all. I shoot vastly better than majority of gunowners but among serious shooters there is nothing impressive about my shooting.

    CPF: A lot of policemen actually aren't that interested in firearms and don't really get much serious practice in, since their line of work involves mostly things other than firearms. I don't think that kind of police shooting statistics should be used to justify less practice or less than acceptable marksmanship for anyone who will be armed. Many a firearm instructors (who have walked the walk) speak the same sentiment.

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  6. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 4:42pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No one is advocating less practice.
    That a 71 yo man outshot the average cop in the NYPD, is pretty damn impressive in my book, your criticisms of police training aside.
  7. dwkfym is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 4:44pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChenPengFi View Post
    No one is advocating less practice.
    That a 71 yo man outshot the average cop in the NYPD, is pretty damn impressive in my book, your criticisms of police training aside.
    Well, in their defense it seems like policemen often times simply do not have the time or resources to devote enough time to practice shooting. They have a lot of other skillsets and knowledge they need to maintain, including things possible more important than guns. Also, maybe this is true for a lot of cops but I've met plenty of cops who are crack shots.
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  8. ChenPengFi is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 4:52pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Haha, yeah it bears noting that "shooting people" isn't really their main job.
  9. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 4:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by dwkfym View Post
    I played the what if game, clearly stated that its a what if game, and its undisputed that more firearms training is completely beneficial, and is it disputed at all that the two shots would have been efficient (in your definition) if he was someone, say, who actually intended to kill anyone who got in the perps way? That is my point here. The perps here obviously didn't get to talk the talk, like you said someone who would lack street cred. 'What if' game or not, that fact remains true; in many other situations the old man's performance would not have been good enough. I still stand by my 'practice more' comment and it has a place in this thread. No need to criticize it. Obviously I still commend the old man for taking the risk and bringing his weapon into the fight, which might be a lot more than what most people would do in that situation.
    I don't think you get it. Playing the what if game when you have to reference is silly. You keep saying in another situation blah blah blah. Who give a **** really? He's a 71 yr old man who handled himself adequately.

    As far as my "wah wah I'll do better than that old man" comment I basically can't back that up with anything and defer that to you. i.e. you've convinced me on that and the best thing I can do is, well, go practice some more.
    No one said you shouldn't practice but being a Range Rambo and being in a fire fight are two different things.
    I got a genuine question though; In a real first-time firefight, how much performance can be expected to decrease? What about you personally?
    Expected it to decrease quite a bit. Like I said before my first outing far from stellar I was scared as **** and my first thoughts were to take cover and hide. I qualify expert pretty much ever time. I've even earned a expert (gold) marksmanship badges form a foreign service. Firefights are about more than just shooting its dealing with the fact that some can kill you. That fear can be paralyzing and even when push past that you have to deal with all the adrenaline coursing through your body.

    I'm sure it varies from person to person but I am wondering if that can be quantified at all. I read that as long as the shooter remembered to pick up the front sight they actually do pretty well, but that most shootings people do not remember using the sights at all.
    From what I have seen is that guys will remember their training but as stated several times you have things acting against it. Squeeze becomes Pull and breathing is all over the place. You are trying to pull that together while someone is threatening your life.

    I shoot vastly better than majority of gunowners but among serious shooters there is nothing impressive about my shooting.
    This is based on what exactly?

    CPF: A lot of policemen actually aren't that interested in firearms and don't really get much serious practice in, since their line of work involves mostly things other than firearms. I don't think that kind of police shooting statistics should be used to justify less practice or less than acceptable marksmanship for anyone who will be armed. Many a firearm instructors (who have walked the walk) speak the same sentiment.
    I think you are really missing the point. Quote where anyone said you shouldn't practice. The stats show that even at a close range with people who do train on their firearms the hit ratio isn't that high.

    Your resident armchair commando, dwkfym
    Pray you stay that way. Generally guys who deal with shootouts well are ones that been in several of them. Something I wouldn't recommend.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. slamdunc is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 5:01pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    if you never been in a real life or death situation with firearms you can't really say how you will do. Fist fighting and fire fights are very different. As I state before fear and adrenaline can play havoc on marksmanship skills.
    So true..^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I can kill the hell out of some paper or pop-up targets on the range, but under the stress of an armed encounter, skills diminish. This incident is real easy to armchair quarterback, especially with game-film (video from three angles), I can review and develop a plan. When some **** like this goes down, there is no way to know how you will react.

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