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  1. #1
    mihy000
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    Noob questions about Judo

    The noob is strong in this one so forgive me. I have a couple of noob questions about judo which I just started a month ago. Thankfully I'm still young, so I have plenty of time to un-noob myself.

    -They say the effectiveness of a combat sport is determined by its rules because most practitioners train to meet those rules. TaiKwonFu sucks the big one because they only kick each other. How much did the ippon oriented style of the olympics neuter judo? Is modern judo still potent for either mma or the "str33ts"?

    -Some people say bjj is better for the streets but I would argue that it's just as valuable or maybe even better to have control over where the fight goes,with all the time judoka spend on throws and pins (osaekomi). Am I right?

    -Judo pinning (osaekomi) vs wrestling pinning. What's the difference?

    -They say about bjj a lot that in a pure grappler vs striker match, the bjj wins most of the time. In a style vs style matchup,would a judoka at the highest level be able to defeat a professional boxer or K-1 kickboxer, provided they are the same size?

  2. #2
    NeilG's Avatar
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    As far as street effectiveness goes, I think hitting your opponent with the planet works pretty well.

    Judo pins require you control your opponent for an extended period of time. They also allow you to go for the submission. So I would say they are more meaningful than wrestling pins.

  3. #3
    mihy000
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    As far as street effectiveness goes, I think hitting your opponent with the planet works pretty well.

    Judo pins require you control your opponent for an extended period of time. They also allow you to go for the submission. So I would say they are more meaningful than wrestling pins.
    Thanks for the concise answer. But what about the olympic judoka vs prof boxer / k-1 kickboxer ?

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    NeilG's Avatar
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    I'll let people who are more into the mma side of things answer that fantasy question. I'm kind of an odd guy to be answering your questions as I don't care about self-defense much nor do I own any Tap-out gear. I can say that if your opponent is not an elite fighter likely you can take a shot going in and then control from there. I think situational awareness, keeping your head and good cardio will save your bacon more effectively than anything else. Ie avoid it, talk your way out of it or run away.

  5. #5
    It is Fake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    Thanks for the concise answer. But what about the olympic judoka vs prof boxer / k-1 kickboxer ?
    Truthfully? Your question is as bad as Bruce Lee vs Ali. Under their specific rule-sets, more often than not, the person trained for those rules is going to win. In an open competition it will be the better fighter.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    The noob is strong in this one so forgive me. I have a couple of noob questions about judo which I just started a month ago. Thankfully I'm still young, so I have plenty of time to un-noob myself.

    -They say the effectiveness of a combat sport is determined by its rules because most practitioners train to meet those rules. TaiKwonFu sucks the big one because they only kick each other. How much did the ippon oriented style of the olympics neuter judo? Is modern judo still potent for either mma or the "str33ts"?

    -Some people say bjj is better for the streets but I would argue that it's just as valuable or maybe even better to have control over where the fight goes,with all the time judoka spend on throws and pins (osaekomi). Am I right?

    -Judo pinning (osaekomi) vs wrestling pinning. What's the difference?

    -They say about bjj a lot that in a pure grappler vs striker match, the bjj wins most of the time. In a style vs style matchup,would a judoka at the highest level be able to defeat a professional boxer or K-1 kickboxer, provided they are the same size?
    1. Depends on your dojo for just how effective it's going to be, but yes, most Judo is still street worthy and an excellent art for self defense.
    2. You're not right that it's more effective. It would depend entirely on the practitioner and how they use their knowledge. Though I'm certainly not about to argue that dumping someone onto the concrete on their head can't be just as effective as putting them to sleep with a RNC.
    3. You mean besides the amount of time it takes to get the pin in competition, which seems to be much longer in Judo? I don't know. Though it seems like it would then make sense that Judo puts more of an emphasis on pinning, since they have to do it for longer.
    4. Ridiculous question. It depends on what the ruleset is. No holds barred, it depends one hundred percent on the individual athlete.

  7. #7

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    When you read my post, please bear in mind that I have never done Judo, and I'm lousy at BJJ (I've also been out of the sport for about two years or so, although I plan on getting back into it now that I'm back in Hawaii and College is well and done with). In spite of that fact, I'll try and answer your questions as best I can.

    1. I'm of the mindset that less rules typically leads to superior self defense. Still, Judo techniques work and are typically trained against resisting opponents. You can look up Karo Parisyan if you want an example of a Judoka who performs well in rulesets that allows all kinds of striking.

    2. It's difficult for me to say whether or not BJJ or Judo is better in t3h str33t, and most people probably would say the same. A good throw onto a hard surface can end a fight, and so can a submission that's carried out to its logical conclusion. It's worth bearing in mind, though, that most or all of the original Gracie Jiu-Jitsu techniques were from Judo ne-waza, so you're free to focus on a ground game in Judo if you want I guess. I'm told that there have been significant innovations that do not come from Judo in modern BJJ, but I simply don't know enough to verify that.

    3. I know nothing about pins and how they differ between Judo and other grappling styles where pinning matters. Sorry.

    4. There are too many variables between individuals to determine what kind of style would win in a no holds barred match. I'm sure it's very possible for a judoka to win, if that answers your question.

  8. #8
    BKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    The noob is strong in this one so forgive me. I have a couple of noob questions about judo which I just started a month ago. Thankfully I'm still young, so I have plenty of time to un-noob myself.
    You are in newbietown and thus pretty much safe, so relax. Safe from everyone other than Omega, that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    -They say the effectiveness of a combat sport is determined by its rules because most practitioners train to meet those rules. TaiKwonFu sucks the big one because they only kick each other. How much did the ippon oriented style of the olympics neuter judo? Is modern judo still potent for either mma or the "str33ts"?
    Whos is this rhetorical "they" of whom you speak?

    Taikwondo supposedly sucks because of how it's practiced. I've known a few TKD guys who I'd hate to have to fight under any circumstances. They sparred hard, and punched as well as kicked (that's called "alive" training).

    "Ippon oriented style of olympics (judo)"? Not sure what you are talking about. Judo has always been "ippon" oriented, waaaaay before it was ever an olympic sport. Achieving ippon via throwing, pinning, or choke/armbar is part and parcel of Judo.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    -Some people say bjj is better for the streets but I would argue that it's just as valuable or maybe even better to have control over where the fight goes,with all the time judoka spend on throws and pins (osaekomi). Am I right?
    You don't know much about BJJ, apparently. It's all about control, how else are you going to apply a submission?

    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    -Judo pinning (osaekomi) vs wrestling pinning. What's the difference?
    Pinning is pinning, what constitutes a pin will depend on the rules of the sport in question. The principles are the same regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    -They say about bjj a lot that in a pure grappler vs striker match, the bjj wins most of the time. In a style vs style matchup,would a judoka at the highest level be able to defeat a professional boxer or K-1 kickboxer, provided they are the same size?
    This is a silly question. Are you talking about a free fight with nor rules? Style vs style is so...90s...so rec.martial arts?

    Judo, BJJ Boxing, etc. are fun, if not intense. fighting, real fighting, is not fun unless you are a sadist (winning) or masochist (losing). Enjoy your practice maybe eventual study of Judo. Realize that all "arts" have their limitations one way or another. Give up on the style vs style thing, too.

    Ben
    Falling for Judo since 1980

    "You are wrong. Why? Because you move like a pregnant yak and talk like a spazzing 'I train UFC' noob." -DCS

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  9. #9
    mihy000
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    Some more questions about Judo

    -I heard judo has a steeper learning curve compared to bjj and striking arts because of the need to understand new concepts like kuzushi. Is it too late to become elite or very good in a couple of yrs if you started early-20's? I don't expect to compete in the 2016 Olympics, but good enough where I could hear, "Man, that guy's pretty damn good for someone who's not a pro(full-time)," within a reasonable amount of time.

    -I read that for both bjj and judo, the purpose of training with the gi is to help you understand how to manipulate clothing. Of course, it's a bit harder, but could you still throw someone in a T-shirt, or would it just rip?

    -My friend, who wrestled in high school, says wrestling is more practical and has better takedowns. Is that true? Would wrestlers win a takedown battle?

    -Does judo make you fit and mentally strong?

  10. #10
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    -I heard judo has a steeper learning curve compared to bjj and striking arts because of the need to understand new concepts like kuzushi. Is it too late to become elite or very good in a couple of yrs if you started early-20's? I don't expect to compete in the 2016 Olympics, but good enough where I could hear, "Man, that guy's pretty damn good for someone who's not a pro(full-time)," within a reasonable amount of time.
    Due partly to way it's taught and partly to inherent difficult, Judo does tend to have a steeper learning curve at the beginning. You can certainly become pretty good in a couple of years if you put the time (i.e. quite a lot) in.
    Quote Originally Posted by mihy000 View Post
    -I read that for both bjj and judo, the purpose of training with the gi is to help you understand how to manipulate clothing. Of course, it's a bit harder, but could you still throw someone in a T-shirt, or would it just rip?
    The purpose of training in the gi in those styles is basically tradition rather than any particular practical concern. That said, you generally can throw somebody by a t-shirt once or twice before it's destroyed. Many throws also work with no-gi grips, if you practise that way.
    -My friend, who wrestled in high school, says wrestling is more practical and has better takedowns. Is that true? Would wrestlers win a takedown battle?
    As a generality, wrestling does have better take-downs i.e. moves whose aim is to put you on the bottom. Judo has the better throws i.e. moves whose aim is to land you heavily on your back.

    Look for which is available near you and try the classes, rather than trying to decide in the abstract.
    -Does judo make you fit and mentally strong?
    Yes.

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