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  1. Growley

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 6:50am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Knees as 'takedown defence'

    I know.. it sounds like a stupid issue, but it's something that has recently arisen as a point of disagreement in my gym amongst the muay Thai crowd.

    While I and the other 'MMA guys' often attend the muay Thai sessions at my gym, it's only recently that one of the new coaches has been happy to allow us to occasionally use more wrestling-orientated takedowns during sparring; telling the 'pure' muay Thai guys that it's beneficial for them to occasionally mix things up and learn to adapt to situations they're uncomfortable with. This isn't a particular issue with anyone in itself, but a couple of the muay Thai guys argue that you couldn't use MMA takedowns against a muay Thai fighter consistently, because the threat of knees means they'd effectively be able to stop the wrestlers.

    Now, the coach who allows these altered sparring rules is a great guy and open to a lot of things, so we finished up by doing some MMA sparring wearing boxing gloves after everyone was done; in standard fashion he was getting the better of me standing, until I closed the distance and caught a single-leg, taking him down and landing in side control, where I was able to dominate (with the limited grappling control one can have with boxing gloves anyway). It wasn't until I gained full mount that I realised my eye was swelling up, and I had caught a knee to the cheekbone during my takedown.

    Now, the way I see it, the knee didn't stop me, it probably wouldn't have stopped the fight (if it were an MMA fight), and I was in full mount on a striking specialist with limited grappling experience. However, a couple of the muay Thai guys are attempting to use the facial injury (which has amounted to a nasty black eye, but nothing remotely serious) as evidence that going in for a takedown was a grave mistake.

    So, finally we get to my main question; can knee strikes be anything more than an occasional defence to a telegraphed takedown? Or would I be correct in my viewpoint that they're unlikely to stop the wrestler taking down his opponent and dominating them?

    *ps. I did try searching.. although it is quite possible I missed an obvious thread already dealing with this issue.
  2. Neo Sigma is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 7:32am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd say it's pretty low-percentage. The takedown would have to be pretty badly telegraphed, or the MT guy would have to have Anderson Silva-like reflexes to be able to make it really effective. Something else to think about- wrestlers spend a LOT of time diving at people's legs. Anybody who's wrestled for a while would have eaten their fair share of knees to the face, whether accidental or intentional. And while a lot of MMA fighters have shitty striking, there are a few that are pretty technically sound. I bet Thiago Alves wishes he knew the secret your MT guys apparently know when he fought GSP, for example.

    I love muay thai, but your guys are being completely unrealistic about the style's limitations.
  3. Growley

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 8:39am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Sigma View Post
    I'd say it's pretty low-percentage. The takedown would have to be pretty badly telegraphed, or the MT guy would have to have Anderson Silva-like reflexes to be able to make it really effective. Something else to think about- wrestlers spend a LOT of time diving at people's legs. Anybody who's wrestled for a while would have eaten their fair share of knees to the face, whether accidental or intentional. And while a lot of MMA fighters have shitty striking, there are a few that are pretty technically sound. I bet Thiago Alves wishes he knew the secret your MT guys apparently know when he fought GSP, for example.

    I love muay thai, but your guys are being completely unrealistic about the style's limitations.
    Yeah this is pretty much my attitude to the whole thing, I did mention to one of them that Muay Thai is widely used in MMA, and yet funnily enough people are often taken down without issue.. but they conveniently focused their discussion on my eye lol.

    I did consider that it might be related to the tension that often exists (usually as little more than banter) between strikers and grapplers in MMA gyms. Some 'pure' strikers don't really consider grappling as fighting, and so are unwilling to acknowledge areas where it can overcome good striking.


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  4. danno is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 10:39am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's like saying boxing is superior to muay thai. No need to learn how to kick because you can just knock them out with punches.
  5. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 10:44am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Your training buddies are inexperienced and shortsighted. Is there a takedown that will beat strikers every time, regardless of thrown knees? No. Is there a knee counter for every takedown? No.

    It all comes down to how the two guys sparring/fighting skill sets match up against each other. I can point to numerous cases of takedowns succeeding against accomplished Muay Thai strikers in MMA matches, even when they are throwing knees. I can also do the same for strikers using knees successfully against accomplished wrestlers takedown attempts.

    All else being equal, I'd have to give an overall advantage to fighter attempting the takedown for two reasons. The first is just gravity. The second is because it takes quite a bit more skill to successfully hit someone with a knee to the face when they're coming in for a takedown attempt as opposed to performing even a crude takedown, like a rugby tackle.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  6. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 10:57am

    Business Class Supporting Memberstaff
     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If a guy is grabbing at your legs trying to get you on the ground, does it make sense to lift one of them, voluntarily?
  7. Growley

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 11:07am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp View Post
    Your training buddies are inexperienced and shortsighted.
    I totally agree with this. While some of them are very good at what they do, if they had any experience in an MMA setting, they'd understand how their theories don't translate as well into practice as they would like.

    I think one big problem with the knee strike solution is that, even if you have the cat-like reactions and skill to land it, there's no guarantee it'll knock your opponent out, therefore diminishing its value.


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  8. gregaquaman is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 12:09pm


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In any event you really need to get as good at the stand up as the Muay thai guys and then it is a non issue.

    I am going to push this. Master of all trades.

    But yes you can be stopped with a knee when going for a takedown. Or you can do a takedown and not be stopped with a knee. Depends on the fight.

    I spar a guy who knees punches and generally beats me up pretty much every takedown attempt I do. But then he is better than me on all levels

    Be aware that it can happen and disguise your takedown attempts.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts
  9. Growley

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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 12:42pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by gregaquaman View Post
    In any event you really need to get as good at the stand up as the Muay thai guys and then it is a non issue.

    I am going to push this. Master of all trades.
    I agree, and have always trained with this idea in mind, against the majority of the muay Thai guys I do just fine, it was the coach in this case who was the only guy present I'd say I'm unable to hold my own against in pure standup, he was also the one who caught me with the knee.

    But yes you can be stopped with a knee when going for a takedown. Or you can do a takedown and not be stopped with a knee. Depends on the fight.

    I spar a guy who knees punches and generally beats me up pretty much every takedown attempt I do. But then he is better than me on all levels

    Be aware that it can happen and disguise your takedown attempts.
    Something I also neglected to mention before was that the coach didn't deliberately use a knee strike against a takedown; he reacted to what he thought would be a punch by leaning backwards and thrusting his knee forwards into what would have been my ribs. Under those circumstances I would think the takedown itself in this particular case was, if anything, disguised to my detriment lol.

    But yes, I have personally seen incidents where a knee has stopped a takedown attempt and effectively stopped the fight, my viewpoint was simply that it's a generally inconsistent defence, which seems to be consistent with the responses I'm receiving here.



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  10. gregaquaman is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/15/2012 9:23pm


     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    either way.

    Here is something you can try.
    Throw the leg kick and shoot for a single leg when they check. Pretty specific for thai guys but give it a wack and see how you go.
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
    http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts
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