Aikido yardstick (not expecting it to be used gently)

**AikiOK** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 9:20am

After reading a lot of posts (not all had to take a break and pry eyes from the screen) on bullshido before and after joining as a member I am well aware of the opinions of at least a simple majority of the members here in regards to aikido. I have trained in other arts to lesser degrees so have let's call it a 'working knowledge' of at least other categories of martial arts, striking,grappling. etc...

So what would it take for folks here to acknowledge that aikido could ever possibly be effective? I have seen the aliveness video, I have read the opinions about the nature of the tori/nage paradigm. So more personal thoughts on the subject, is what I am looking for. If you say, no grappling=not effective that is fine but, to what standard of grappling should we aspire to? competency for 80% of the masses or another standard 80% of muay thai fighters? How can this effectiveness be tested, laying aside the options mentioned of a school review and hopefully never an investigation. Are videos going to be enough until the school is developed enough for a review? Not trolling or trying to bait anyone, just trying to gauge the standards, how they can be applied and knowing full well that I may never change anyone's mind at all without competing in a local mma event as proof.

I have been teaching for the last 2 years after a long break for life and currently have 4 students who haven't received their first gradings yet, so a review seems premature and from the criteria I can tell you we are spartan with barely enough mats for members, a limited training schedule due to facility, and no higher ranking students to compare training with. I am stating facts, not making excuses, this is the situation I have to teach in right now.

I don't feel that I am teaching bullshido or a Mcdojo, and hope that no one who trains with me, or visits these forums feels that either.

<dons asbestos underwear to show he is at least THAT hardcore>

**Fuzzy** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 9:32am

Short answer: sparring.

Show me your students using their Aikido to hold their own, not even win, just hold their own, against a resisting opponent with a similar amount of training and physical condition (obviously from another art which trains alive and has been proved effective).

**AikiOK** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 9:44am

Originally Posted by Fuzzy

Short answer: sparring.

Show me your students using their Aikido to hold their own, not even win, just hold their own, against a resisting opponent with a similar amount of training and physical condition (obviously from another art which trains alive and has been proved effective).

Completely fair. Thank you.

Not sure where to find asthmatic, slightly overweight, over 40 beginners in other systems but, I will try... :)

**realjanuary** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 10:47am

Just to add to what Fuzzy said:

Fuzzy's test is in two parts:
1 they hold their own
2 they use aikido to do it

1 is easy enough to judge. 2 on the other hand can get a little tricky.

It's important to be able to steer an encounter to the area where you have superior competance (like a striker defending take downs to keep playing a striking game).

Are we using other competances to facilitate our aikido (like the takedown defence example) or are we using it to "win more" like a judo-ka with some buj training attributing his grappling skills to buj?

In your practise, it might always be aikido for you, but when does it stop being aikido for your students?

**AikiOK** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 10:57am

Originally Posted by realjanuary

Just to add to what Fuzzy said:

Fuzzy's test is in two parts:
1 they hold their own
2 they use aikido to do it

1 is easy enough to judge. 2 on the other hand can get a little tricky.

It's important to be able to steer an encounter to the area where you have superior competance (like a striker defending take downs to keep playing a striking game).

Are we using other competances to facilitate our aikido (like the takedown defence example) or are we using it to "win more" like a judo-ka with some buj training attributing his grappling skills to buj?

In your practise, it might always be aikido for you, but when does it stop being aikido for your students?

Right, when does the experience change beyond what I have taught them in aikido and into what else they may bring to it from elsewhere. if I understand you. If not, please correct me.

**realjanuary** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 12:27pm

Originally Posted by AikiOK

Right, when does the experience change beyond what I have taught them in aikido and into what else they may bring to it from elsewhere. if I understand you. If not, please correct me.

You got what I was saying (excluding the previously trained in Fuzzy's test*).

Other false positives we need to account for in Fuzzy's test are:

descrepancies in natural ability (one BJ Penn does not legitimise a training regime)
loose labeling of trainining under you (you might call your class aikido but teach the Gracie Bullyproof programme, would it still be aikido?)

*Yeah I'm going to use this as jargon for this thread, see the second post if you don't get what it is.

**dougguod** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 2:00pm

Originally Posted by AikiOK

Not sure where to find asthmatic, slightly overweight, over 40 beginners in other systems but, I will try... :)

The fact that the asthmatic, slightly overweight, over 40 beginners always gravitate towards aikido should give one pause...

**Permalost** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 2:40pm

Originally Posted by AikiOK

Not sure where to find asthmatic, slightly overweight, over 40 beginners in other systems but, I will try... :)

They're not as uncommon as you may think, but a lot aren't beginners. Maybe see if there's any FMA folks nearby that would like to spar with weapons? Do you do bokken/jo/tanto stuff? Do you spar with them? We've got an aikido teacher in my FMA group and he brings some interesting stuff to the table.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 3:28pm

Originally Posted by AikiOK

Completely fair. Thank you.

Not sure where to find asthmatic, slightly overweight, over 40 beginners in other systems but, I will try... :)

I don't even think they need to spar against people in other systems. To me the key is fully resisting. For example: I need to be able to pull off these techniques against someone who is trying to keep me from doing them to me. To compliant at all. If you grab my wrist, I do everything I can think of to pull away and counter.

If the techniques hold up under these conditions, they are effective. This is how we pressure test everything where I train. Everything.

**lordbd** · Posted On: 6/27/2012 3:53pm

The main two things that bothered me when I was training aikido were 1) it didn't help me reach my fitness goals at all (not aikido's fault if thats not what it is for) and 2) we never got punched at or kicked at or tackled. I would add to what has been stated above, that even if a technique in any art "works" against compliance, a martial art should include at least some basic training in how to deal with the sort of things that an average person might try to do to you in an empy-hands fight. Even if my wrist-locks are amazing and work against resisting people who grab me in one or more ways, what do I do if they throw a haymaker? Same goes for other arts too I suppose. I think aikido helps to handle some of these things in terms of teaching distance and evasion and footwork etc, but still I never used any aikido footwork against a punch in class. ::ramble complete::