A brief view of Western Martial Art

[liuzg150181]

Interesting,your style is sanshou......
A lot of TCMAist(Esp IMA ones) thought that their techniques are too deadly to be used,and they perceive sanshou as a sanshou and not something "chinese"~~~

[nasty_totoro]

fist to face was the first martial art ....

[Tora]

Originally posted by liuzg150181
Next we talk about knights.Contrary to the popular myths knights can moved quite easily in their armour,in fact the more athletic ones could even somersault onto the horses!!!(this is King Henry VIII of England's favourite stunt,when he was young)Knights dont wear bulky full plated armour in battle,that's only for joustling.Therefore they trained intensively in combat arts like weapons and wrestling. And also,there are some European descendents who could traced their lineage back to Knight Orders~~~

Essentially correct, but I think you are mixing a pair of feats. Vaulting into the saddle was an important and practical skill; the act of somersaulting in armor (not on horseback) was certainly done and demonstrates that medieval armor was far from restrictive. ;)

[Tora]

Originally posted by The_Dude73
...The Western philosophy toward combat is much more utilitarian. To hell with tradition, if it isn't useful anymore, let's get the new thing that is. Innovation and technology is the key. The european arts of swordplay, save for fencing, has nearly died out thanks to the innovations of the firearm. The skill of a soldier with a horse is now non-existent thanks to things like tanks and helicopters. Learn what works and get good at doing it. This is why things regarded as western combat sports like boxing and wrestling have no such thing as stylized kata.

Furthermore, in times of war asian countries typically warred amongst themselves. They almost always used similar tactics and technology. Technology and innovation was simply less of a factor to them.

The west, however, not only fought amongst themselves but were often at war with outside cultures, and often adopted or modified tactics to approach new problems. The Greeks fought the Persians, the Romans fought everyone, Europeans fought Saracens. The Crusaders learned the value of a two wall defense for fortifications in the Crusades and brought that back to Europe. The Europeans also saw the value that technology could play on the battlefield, and that often the winner was the one with the latest and greatest weaponry.

It's a little rambling, but as I said, I think the difference between Oriental and Western ways of fighting comes from the respective cultures. I'm not neccessarily saying one is right or wrong, just different.

Basically correct, as far as I know... ;)
Check out sites like www.thearma.org for reconstructions of medieval martial arts based on old manuscripts...

[Freddy]

Originally posted by Tora
Essentially correct, but I think you are mixing a pair of feats. Vaulting into the saddle was an important and practical skill; the act of somersaulting in armor (not on horseback) was certainly done and demonstrates that medieval armor was far from restrictive. ;)

It really depends on what type of armour you are refering to.
I have seen some medieval full armour at musuems and from their construction seems restrictive. I have seen guys fight in full armour at demos and they appear quite sluggish. I could understand flexiblity of chain mail armour, fish scale armour, small plate metal on leather armour. Even with chain mail its really heavy.

[Tora]

Aside from personal experience, there was a show on the discovery channel, in the Conquest series where these feats were duplicated in plate.

Some of the fighters we see in the parks belong to the SCA and they wear armor which is usually thicker than historical armor. The quality also varies considerably.

[Matt W.]

However, I believe that the concept of “Western Martial Art” actually came about due to UFC.

I understand what you are saying here about boxing and wrestling. But the birth of the practice and recreation of Historical European MA from the mdeieval and renaissance periods actually started long before the UFC. It actually began with the various recreation groups and groups like the SCA. As people began to get more into the real fighting techniques that were used (through the study of period fighting manuals and historic arms) they began to shift from "recreation" of battles and time periods to study of historic MA. Groups like ARMA and AEMMA were born, modern fencers began returning to "Classical Fencing" and so on.

Matt

[liuzg150181]

Originally posted by Matt W.
I understand what you are saying here about boxing and wrestling. But the birth of the practice and recreation of Historical European MA from the mdeieval and renaissance periods actually started long before the UFC. It actually began with the various recreation groups and groups like the SCA. As people began to get more into the real fighting techniques that were used (through the study of period fighting manuals and historic arms) they began to shift from "recreation" of battles and time periods to study of historic MA. Groups like ARMA and AEMMA were born, modern fencers began returning to "Classical Fencing" and so on.

Matt

Ok,i also know what you are saying,for the "modern fencing--->classical fencing" part it is quite like modern kendo ppl taking koryu kenjutsu~~~
What i specifically meant in the above is that boxing and wrestling are seen only as a sport and not martial art,but with the advent of UFC the two arts are being accepted more and more as Martial art~~~

[Jolly_Roger]

Originally posted by ronin69
While it is still hotly contested, there is some evidence to suggest that the first MA were african in origin and perhaps the first "written" proof of "martial" training were Egyptian.
While the "true" MA of pankration may very well not exsist anymore, there are a few that practise "modern Pankration".
Wrestling would have been the first MA to be taught due to the relative safety in the way it can be taught and still be effective.
But with out a doubt, "rock-in-hand" was the first ever Martial art ;)

In fact, Ronin, the other day we where working on some Sumerian text, that shows the training of soldiers with spears, and barehanded, with a mention to an organized curriculum. This, dates about 4.500 BC (about 500 years before the flood), seems to be the first historical references to the martial arts, since it predates the Djozer engravings that you are mentioning by about 2.000 years.
It presents an interesting point for us to discuss. Sumerians where living in Asia, but they influenced, and are being referred, as the first real western civilization...so the origin would be WMA.
Tomorrow, I'll try to scan a pic of the tablets, and post it.

[liuzg150181]

Jolly_Roger:looking forward to your pic~~~