Posted On:4/18/2004 8:34pm
This was actually posted by me in other forum, though here i modify it a little.......Anyway feel free to comment,add and correct any errors found in my summary:
"Martial" came from the words Mars,the Roman god of war,so by definition any combat system can be classified any "martial art",and dont get stuck to the mindset that only Asian know how to fight and develop a system for it,those westerners do have their own martial art system,now known as "western martial art"~~~
A forum about western martial art:
Let's have a brief history lesson,the first martial arts of the West should come from Greeks and Romans,for they are taught wrestling as curriculum to become a soldier, one fine example is Plato,who is an accomplished wrestler himself(In fact it is said that plato is not his real name but nickname meaning "broad shoulder").Not to forget greek has this thing known as pankratium,where kicking,boxing,wrestling and submission are allowed,in addition they can gouge eyes,pull hairs,hit groins etc......
Next we talk about knights.Contrary to the popular myths knights can moved quite easily in their armour,in fact the more athletic ones could even somersault onto the horses!!!(this is King Henry VIII of England's favourite stunt,when he was young)Knights dont wear bulky full plated armour in battle,that's only for joustling.Therefore they trained intensively in combat arts like weapons and wrestling. And also,there are some European descendents who could traced their lineage back to Knight Orders~~~
During renaissance era, swordsmanship is more for personal protection rather than for battles, therefore lighter and shorter swords had become more popular. The fencing school sprouted across Europe, particularly Italy~~~However as gunpowder comes along, fencing became less and less popular…….
Now I shall reach the modern state of western MA……due to industrialisation European cities suddenly experienced a surge in population. Being crowded meant that more crimes and brawlings ensued. Prizefighting is prevalent, with wrestling, kicking and even eye gouging and groin hitting!!!@@ Later an Englishman known as James Figg began to systemized Western martial arts into wrestling, boxing, cudgel fighting etc. but only boxing thrives in the end, and the intro of Queenbury rules brought about modern boxing, with the support of bourgeois who wanted to learn it as recreation and self-defense and the commercial support behind it it florished~~~
Some little known facts about Western Martial arts:
Meanwhile the French developed a fighting art primarily using kicks known as “Savate”, supposedly invented by ruffian French sailor,though it is likely there is an influence by Muay Thai.We must also know that traditional wrestling had been in existence in Europe for a long time, thought to be a heritage by the Roman conquerors. Also worthy of mention is the western revival martial art. One example is Greco-Roman wrestling,so-called because it is believed that the Greeks and Romans wrestling that way, and Pankration, a mixture of wrestling, boxing, kickboxing etc. to re-enact how the Greeks fought in Pancratium. Other western revival martial art appears,through getting a hold of combat manuals printed during renaissance era (yes,martial art manuscript!!!)and trying to mimick the technique.
However, I believe that the concept of “Western Martial Art” actually came about due to UFC. Prior to that boxing and wrestling and such are perceived as sport only and not something as good as Eastern Martial Art, a perception even held by the exponents themselves. However, as UFC came about many realized that boxing and wrestling are just as combat effective as Asian ones, if not better~~~
"People think that judo is only unarmed combat - but you are never unarmed when you can hit someone with a planet. "
- Uncyclopedia entry on Judo
Posted On:4/18/2004 8:36pm
Style: Using bag as aggro outlet
No, Western MA are a lot older than Hellenic civilisation. And Pankration just plain doesn't exist any more, as far as I know.
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Posted On:4/19/2004 12:03am
As i had said,the modern Pankration is just a revival art like Greco-Roman wrestling, got no direct origin from ancient Greeks or Romans~~~
And i agree that Western MA are a lot older than Hellenic civilisation, this summary of mine is intended to explain to those TCMA people in another board that boxing could be considered martial art,so i skip the part prior to the Greek civilization~~~
Merry Christmas Bitch
Posted On:5/06/2004 11:29am
Style: Canadian Shidokan
While it is still hotly contested, there is some evidence to suggest that the first MA were african in origin and perhaps the first "written" proof of "martial" training were Egyptian.
While the "true" MA of pankration may very well not exsist anymore, there are a few that practise "modern Pankration".
Wrestling would have been the first MA to be taught due to the relative safety in the way it can be taught and still be effective.
But with out a doubt, "rock-in-hand" was the first ever Martial art ;)
Posted On:5/06/2004 11:33am
Thanks for the comments,ronin69, then how about history of boxing?
Posted On:5/06/2004 11:48am
What boxing? french? thai? chinese? jamaican?
Posted On:5/06/2004 11:59am
Style: BJJ, CSW
I think the biggest differences between Far Eastern and Western methods of martial training are cultural. Throughout the entire Far East, tradition and order are highly valued. This is why to this day you still find many schools training in what is essentially medieval oritental weaponry and going about doing structuralized katas (with the exception of many Southeast asian styles of fighting). The asian mindset felt a need to put an order to something as chaotic as combat, as well as to retain the traditions of their forefathers. This is the sort of thing you'll find in traditional styles like Karate, TKD, TJJ, Kung Fu, etc.
The Western philosophy toward combat is much more utilitarian. To hell with tradition, if it isn't useful anymore, let's get the new thing that is. Innovation and technology is the key. The european arts of swordplay, save for fencing, has nearly died out thanks to the innovations of the firearm. The skill of a soldier with a horse is now non-existent thanks to things like tanks and helicopters. Learn what works and get good at doing it. This is why things regarded as western combat sports like boxing and wrestling have no such thing as stylized kata.
Furthermore, in times of war asian countries typically warred amongst themselves. They almost always used similar tactics and technology. Technology and innovation was simply less of a factor to them.
The west, however, not only fought amongst themselves but were often at war with outside cultures, and often adopted or modified tactics to approach new problems. The Greeks fought the Persians, the Romans fought everyone, Europeans fought Saracens. The Crusaders learned the value of a two wall defense for fortifications in the Crusades and brought that back to Europe. The Europeans also saw the value that technology could play on the battlefield, and that often the winner was the one with the latest and greatest weaponry.
It's a little rambling, but as I said, I think the difference between Oriental and Western ways of fighting comes from the respective cultures. I'm not neccessarily saying one is right or wrong, just different.
Posted On:5/06/2004 12:20pm
Indeed, eastern cultures mystify martial arts and some of the practitioners, while the west tends to be more grounded.
While empty handed combat always holds a "special place" in any Eastern MA, its less so in the western ones.
In many ways, practicality was of the upmost importnace in western MA, while in eastern MA, even though it was VITAL, many "wasted" precious energy on esoteric crap to add "prestige" to their chosen MA.
Posted On:5/06/2004 10:44pm
One thing for sure,a lot of TMAist esp. the Chinese TMA are stuck in their glorious past~~~
Posted On:5/06/2004 10:54pm
That is quite true.
When you do challenge a TMAist to fight, the usual excuse is: Our master didn't teach us to fight because he was afraid that we would use the skills to hurt...My master has defeated 4 world champions on this principle.
Then we go at it, and they don't really stand a chance...
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