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  1. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2012 1:47pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    No, I beilieve I follow you.
    Not to be mean but I really don't think you do.

    There is a generally accepted departure from standard mores at these events. Generally does not mean universally. Therefore, when you go along with the crowd, you necessarily run the risk of encountering an outlier who is not.
    This is why I say that. It is not a generally departure form standard mores it IS the standard. This is why I said people who haven't been to bacchanal should STFU because you really don't understand the culture.

    An analogy might be moshing/hardcore dancing whatever. It's expected that people will get out in front of the stage and shoulder-check each other, maybe wave some limbs around. People get knocked down and/or hurt, usually some responsible party will get them to safety.

    Now, if somebody takes offense, doesn't like their drink spilled, got poked in the eye, or what-have-you, and they lash out, you are not in a position to escalate. You can defend yourself from the attack, but if you up the ante, or press the counter attack, you've crossed a new line
    Incorrect. I've literally been in mosh pits across the globe and lashing out is not the norm and you run the risk of a beat down from others because YOU crossed the line not the person pressing the counter attack.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  2. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2012 2:01pm

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    [QUOTE=ccwscott;2700045]
    People's bodies belong to themselves. This is true regardless of the culture or expectations of the event. Even if you shake your booty, your booty still belongs to you. So if you grab someone and they didn't want you to, you've done something wrong and in most places in the world illegal. Maybe labeling it sexual assault in that situation is driving a technicality too far, but so is freaking out over being hit with a soft shoe.
    Seriously you really don't know what the you're talking about. Yes your body is technically yours but you also agree to some things when you enter an event, period. You don't go into a boxing match expecting not to be hit. You cannot then freak out because the other boxer hit you. Same with bacchanal you go into it expecting to be rubbed up on (regardless of gender) if you don't like the person you tell them suck and move on. THAT is normal. Slapping them with a shoe is not. As stated before if he was overly gropey and was trying to sexually assault her that is different because that isn't the norm. (sexual assault not sex because that is pretty normal)

    But you know what's not a technicality? Responding with violent force that could kill or permanently injure someone because they embarrassed you. And if slapping someone is so far outside the norm for this festival, then how far outside the norm is fucking leveling someone like that?
    Slapping, especially with a shoe, is very outside the festival and if you know anything about Caribbean culture you would know that decking said person would not really be looked down upon.

    This is just all starting to sound like classic "we raped her because she wouldn't let us rape her" talk, if she defends herself, then that's why she deserved it, if she doesn't defend herself, then that's why she deserved it, otherwise it's "just the culture" or "no one else has ever complained before" which becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Focusing on trivial aspects of her behavior instead of talking about the obviously way over the line fucked up behavior of your friend. Like gang-raping someone and complaining because their screaming was technically a violation of noise ordinances. Maybe that's true, but if you think that's a relevant point of discussion in that situation you're a dickshit waste of a human being.
    Again there is ignorance here. No one is using the "we raped her because she wouldn't let us rape her" thing. Bringing that up alone tells you don't know what you're talking about. Rape isn't acceptable. If the guy actually did sexually assault her and then laid her out for retaliating he would be a bitch and worthy of all the hate coming his way. If he did not assault her then she was the bitch by getting physical in the first place. I've been to bacchanal many times. I've rubbed up on, been rubbed up against, even had my junk grabbed. If you don't like the person doing it you tell them and move along you don't resort to violence. If you ever been in an orgy similar rules apply and there you are expected to be sexed by somebody.
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
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  3. battlefields is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2012 5:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    Not to be mean but I really don't think you do.


    This is why I say that. It is not a generally departure form standard mores it IS the standard. This is why I said people who haven't been to bacchanal should STFU because you really don't understand the culture.


    Incorrect. I've literally been in mosh pits across the globe and lashing out is not the norm and you run the risk of a beat down from others because YOU crossed the line not the person pressing the counter attack.
    I'd agree with you in regards to metal moshes, Gezere, but the newer on the scene hardcore/ deathcore moshpits are a completely different kettle of fish. There's a combination of mosh aggression, wild slam dancing and flashy kicking and windmilling of arms. Seriously, moshes have changed and I wouldn't discount that point from ermghoti. I'm not saying it invalidates yours, just that it isn't totally discountable.
    GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
  4. ermghoti is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2012 5:35pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    Not to be mean but I really don't think you do.


    This is why I say that. It is not a generally departure form standard mores it IS the standard. This is why I said people who haven't been to bacchanal should STFU because you really don't understand the culture.
    My limited understanding of Caribbean culture is not the central thrust (no pun intended) of the discussion. We are talking about whether it is appropriate self-defense to punch a woman who has slapped you with a shoe for making an extremely coarse sexual advance. Irrespective of how socially acceptable the advance is, consent can be withdrawn at any time, sexual assault is defined entirely by the recipient of the behavior, on a case by case, minute by minute basis. Responding with violence to someone who has made it unmistakeably clear where they believe their comfort level with physical contact lies is, at a minimum, foolhardy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gezere View Post
    Incorrect. I've literally been in mosh pits across the globe and lashing out is not the norm and you run the risk of a beat down from others because YOU crossed the line not the person pressing the counter attack.
    That is a likely outcome. Try this explanation as a legal defense. "Your honor, I poked this guy in the eye while fighting invisible ninjas in the pit. When he shoved me, I was bound by the Mosher's Code to jump him with all my friends."

    Furthermore, as you must know, moshing is not a uniform behavior. The whipping limbs thing is frowned upon in some places, de rigueur in others. The lashing out generally doesn't occur, because everybody is on the same page. One guy shows up with different expectations, there's going to be problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
  5. lukerawks is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2012 6:03pm


     Style: BJJ

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    j
    Quote Originally Posted by Son of Thunder View Post
    The correct response to a slapping situation involves repeatedly questioning the slapper's slapping and whimpering like a little crybaby.



    Duh.
    HOW CAN SHE SLAP?!?!? HOW CAN SHE SLAP!?!?

    AHHHHaahhhhhhhhhhhhhuuugghhhnnnnnn

    How can she slap meeeaauuunnnggghhhhnnnnn!
  6. Hexe is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2012 9:45pm


     Style: SL5,MT, BJJ noob,Chow Gar

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    Quote Originally Posted by cualltaigh View Post
    ^This reminds me of when our auditors would take us out for a post-audit "dinner" once the annual reports were signed off. I miss engagements with that firm and their single-eastern-european-female hiring policy.
    Wha...is this some CPA underground brotherhood thing? All the bean counters I know front the straight laced visage. Man, I should have done commerce. All science gets you is the occasional hot chic in specs.
  7. cualltaigh is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/27/2012 10:21pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexe View Post
    Wha...is this some CPA underground brotherhood thing? All the bean counters I know front the straight laced visage. Man, I should have done commerce. All science gets you is the occasional hot chic in specs.
    CPA?! Pffft, Chartered mate, the CPA program is for the wimps who can't handle pressure!

    Although I know plenty of bean counters of the ilk, they are mostly in either business services, straight tax or government. Commercial accounting is where all the good stuff happens, but Corporate Finance is where the best **** happens. Namely because you're dealing with institutional bankers who have been known to celebrate a done deal with a 3 day cocaine bender.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  8. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2012 7:37am

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    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    My limited understanding of Caribbean culture is not the central thrust (no pun intended) of the discussion.
    The culture is central because it not one you are used to and you are making a judgement without understand the full picture.

    We are talking about whether it is appropriate self-defense to punch a woman who has slapped you with a shoe for making an extremely coarse sexual advance.
    You are speculating it was an extremely coarse sexual advance. That is were the culture thing comes in. What you consider extreme is not the same everywhere else especially at these type of events. As I stated many times before he would have to been a real ass to garner that reaction. IF he was overly physical, and for Baccahnal that would pretty much me he was tryin to finger her on the dance floor when she already said no, then I can see here retaliating and he would be a bigger ass for decking her. If all it was is she didn't like him coming up on her then she should have simply said so and not become physical, period.
    Again we are all speculating on what actually set her off. However part of trying to understand what it could have been involved understanding what was going on.

    Irrespective of how socially acceptable the advance is consent can be withdrawn at any time, sexual assault is defined entirely by the recipient of the behavior, on a case by case, minute by minute basis.
    You can't really say that because AGAIN what is a cultural norm one place in not in another. Laws very from place to place. You are looking at it from YOUR cultural veiw point not everything is universal

    Responding with violence to someone who has made it unmistakeably clear where they believe their comfort level with physical contact lies is, at a minimum, foolhardy.
    INITIATING with violence is also the issue. Simple think don't want to be hit don't hit other people.

    That is a likely outcome. Try this explanation as a legal defense. "Your honor, I poked this guy in the eye while fighting invisible ninjas in the pit. When he shoved me, I was bound by the Mosher's Code to jump him with all my friends."
    The legal defense here would be, "Ya honar. I came to da gurl for a rub up and she took of her shoe an boxed me with it!"
    Judge, "Whaz diz foolishness! Gurl shoe go on ya foot. Ya not da man mother"
    (The part of the judge is played by my Mother in law.)
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  9. ermghoti is online now
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    Posted On:
    6/28/2012 11:35am


     Style: BJJ+Sanda

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fair enough. Like I said, I'm really not trying to speculate on another culture, and doing a bad job of appearing not to, partly due to the fact that BS is running really choppily on my home PC.

    If I kiss my girlfriend on the cheek in a mall in Newton, and she smacks me with a shoe, she is batshit insane. It is still not appropriate for me to respond with a right cross.

    Cultural norms or no, you almost never get into legal or social trouble by not escalation, or deescalating a confrontation. That was supposed to be my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devil
    Why is it so goddamn hard to find a video of it? I've seen videos I'm pretty sure are alien spacecraft. But still no good Krav.
  10. ccwscott is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/28/2012 1:19pm


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    [QUOTE=Gezere;2700320]
    Quote Originally Posted by ccwscott View Post
    Seriously you really don't know what the you're talking about. Yes your body is technically yours but you also agree to some things when you enter an event, period. You don't go into a boxing match expecting not to be hit. You cannot then freak out because the other boxer hit you.
    A boxing match that happens outside of a ring, in the streets, without written consent where no one is a professional boxer, where you can start a boxing match by blindsiding any random stranger you run into and there aren't any written codified rules about what's allowed, isn't a boxing match, it's a riot. We don't allow that in society because it would be insane. But switch assault to sexual assault and suddenly there's a group of people who think it's a swell idea.

    And consent can be withdrawn during a boxing match. A boxing match is more analogous to a bedroom with your wife. If you're in the bedroom with your wife, and you grab her boob, and she turns around and slaps you, that's odd if she hasn't given any reason for you to think that's not okay. STILL you can't turn around and beat her to the point of risking death. But doing this alone in a bedroom with your wife is a lot different then just declaring it "boob grab festival day" and anyone who doesn't understand or wants to go out and have a good time without being assaulted, well too fucking bad for you, and if you disagree we'll kill you.

    Same with bacchanal you go into it expecting to be rubbed up on (regardless of gender) if you don't like the person you tell them suck and move on. THAT is normal. Slapping them with a shoe is not. As stated before if he was overly gropey and was trying to sexually assault her that is different because that isn't the norm. (sexual assault not sex because that is pretty normal)
    One of two things has to be true. Either he crossed over a huge line, or you're full of it when you insist that these cultural norms are 100% ubiquitous, completely understood by *wider* society not just bacchanal regulars, and are clear and well defined. Either that or you have to imagine this chick goes to this event where she knows she's going to be constantly rubbed up against, is getting constantly rubbed up against, and then just picks out one guy for no reason to get angry at and smack with a flip flop. It's possible but it's clearly less likely than the alternative.

    I would wager he crossed over a line, and given that he was expelled, I don't see how it's possible that these cultural norms are as wide and clear as you're saying. And honestly, if you think it's okay to deck someone so hard they lift off the ground because they hit you with a flip flop, I by default assume everything you have to say about this issue is unreliable.

    Slapping, especially with a shoe, is very outside the festival and if you know anything about Caribbean culture you would know that decking said person would not really be looked down upon.
    If a person gets sexually assaulted, hits the guy with a flip-flop, and then gets decked so hard they catch air, and that's okay, that's well beyond the threshhold where I care if "it's just their culture" There's no excuse for that. That could have killed her. You don't murder people when you are in no danger. You don't need sensitivity training to know that's wrong, and there's no amount of alcohol to excuse it.

    Again there is ignorance here. No one is using the "we raped her because she wouldn't let us rape her" thing.
    Really? Let's go down the classic list of excuses that rapists (and other generally douchebaggy people) use and see which ones have been thrown around in this thread

    Using things like the way they were dressing as an excuse.
    Saying "it's just their culture"
    Saying "well they're the first ones to ever have any problem with this"
    Nitpicking over the perhaps not perfect behavior of the victim, while ignoring the grossly over the top behavior of the criminals (that wasn't gang rape, you should have seen what she was wearing, plus she used the n-word, let's argue about how that hurt our feelings for hours and hours instead)
    Severely hurting or killing someone who doesn't want to be groped, and looking for any excuse possible to justify this, which is supported by....
    Declaring that there's an esoteric ridiculously specific set of cultural norms (groping is okay but not over the top groping, whatever that means) everyone is in complete agreement on where this line is and it's inconceivable that anyone would go to this event not knowing or might have a different idea of where this line is, and if there's a disagreement it's clearly the victims fault, and they deserve to be severely hurt or killed as a result.
    Ignoring the idea that maybe someone can go out and dance and have a good time without it implicitly being consent to be sexually touched.

    If you ever been in an orgy similar rules apply and there you are expected to be sexed by somebody.
    Orgies face those same problems, and if you're not taking the time to make sure everyone is comfortable with what's going on, if you're not making sure everyone can opt out of anything at any time, if you're not being over the top almost irrationally careful about people's comfort level, if you're coming up with a weird set of guidelines that not everyone knows and murdering people for violating trivial rules, that's not an orgy, it's a gang rape / snuff film.

    We do get it. It would be really hard to run an orgy if you had to ask "can I touch your boob now" every 15 seconds. It's impractical, but the practicality does not change the fact, if you sexually touch someone and they didn't want you to, and you didn't get consent, it's sexual assault. For practical reasons sometimes we take these risks, but don't fool yourself, you are still taking the risk of really hurting or upsetting someone in these circumstances, and if you do that, you've done something wrong, and if they flip out, give them a break.

    Yeah, she shouldn't have slapped him. You shouldn't assault people when you are in no immediate danger. But if that's true for her, it's doubly true for decking someone as hard as you can when they are in no immediate danger, and your insistence on applying this rule in the one hand, and not in the other, just shouts rapist.
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