Restraining Order Against Paul Vunak

gwog · Posted On: 7/09/2012 2:32am

Double post

**Hanniballistic** · Posted On: 7/09/2012 7:14am

Originally Posted by gwog

Looks like Vunak is absolutely enraged and losing his **** as a result. It happens to the best of us but it's extremely disturbing to see it in someone like Paul Vunak.

It takes a certain type of person to make a lifelong intense study of real-deal, genuinely deadly martial arts. This is why you surprisingly often see people of high levels of skill taking short trips into la la land.

The art itself is not the cause - it is the environment the art is used in. In my opinion there are far more obvious reasons for this disconnect from reality.

Originally Posted by gwog

It's popular around here to laugh at everyone, and poke fun at sanctimonious people, paper tigers or not. Not that Vunak is particularly sanctimonious, a great deal less so than many others in fact.

But I would not want to be in a dark alley with an enraged Paul Vunak.

Again his ability to wreck people is not the issue

Originally Posted by gwog

I sure hope he gets whatever he needs to find peace. He's one of my kali instructor's teachers and I've gotten a great deal out of his training materials over the years.

As have I and as I still do - this issue is with the behaviour not the style, or I would not be teaching it still, nor would Singh

Originally Posted by gwog

Sifu Vunak, if you're reading this, and I know you are, please try to do whatever you need to do to be kind. Remember that real strength is gentleness. You have my respect and I mean that.

Vu has displayed tremendous compassion and kindness in the past - to me personally as well as in his "Adapt for Life" prog. He has also done some incredibly irrational and crazy **** too. Although this is the most public he has had such breaks before.

For those inside it is sad but not suprising; for those of us who were DOM's it is an end to what could have been glorious organisation.

Originally Posted by gwog

Guys who are extremely knowledgeable about ways of biting people to death aren't necessarily great diplomats or "people persons." It's really sort of amazing this doesn't happen more. In the silat community it's common, but I haven't seen one quite like this before.

Then perhaps you should look at other causes beyond the art. What could cause that type of paranoia, irrationality and anger?

Originally Posted by gwog

At the same time as all that, a person doesn't lose his **** like that over nothing.

Clearly they do = the transcripts speak for themselves. In fact they do not even tell the whole story.

I love Vu and will always remember him with fondness, but this latest development is not going to go away or become rumour like everything else that has gone before

gwog · Posted On: 7/09/2012 7:55am

I've been watching this stuff for many years, I mean since the 1980s, and I've always been bemused. I am sort of afraid of the guy-- I would never want to get involved with him personally. It's not OK to be that skilled and that loose of a cannon.

Then perhaps you should look at other causes beyond the art. What could cause that type of paranoia, irrationality and anger?

I can think of something.

The art itself is not the cause - it is the environment the art is used in. In my opinion there are far more obvious reasons for this disconnect from reality.

I think I hear what you're saying here. One doesn't like rumors but they've been floating around for 20 years.

At the same time, this stuff is more common in MA than you seem to be allowing. We don't like to admit it. But the nastier the art, the more nutball some of the practitioners can get. That's just a simple fact and you know it as well as I do. I don't know what you think of bujinkan, I'm certainly not a big booster of that, but if you want to see some crazy behavior watch those guys for a few days. You'll see stuff that almost makes this pale in comparison. Bujinkan does seem to attract a certain sort of person.

In any case, this situation is just terribly sad. I'm almost reminded of the final Gyi flameout. One thing I remember about that is how Mr. Denny defended his friend to the bitter end.

The dude does not look well to me at all. It looks to me like he needs help. That look he has is familiar, I've seen it before.

That very taut look.

**tgace** · Posted On: 7/09/2012 8:30am

I think you tend to see certain types of people drawn to certain arts more than you can say that practicing a secific art will cause someone to become unhinged.

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**Hanniballistic** · Posted On: 7/09/2012 8:37am

Agreed - same as the myth of "chi gung psychosis"

gwog · Posted On: 7/09/2012 9:03am

Oh no, that's not what I'm saying. It's that certain people are drawn to certain arts. With tai chi you tend to get people who are extremely woo-woo but usually nice.

I think you tend to see certain types of people drawn to certain arts more than you can say that practicing a secific art will cause someone to become unhinged.

I will say that extreme ass-beating ability, politics and decades of guru worship are too much for a lot of people. Combine that with certain people being drawn to certain arts and you have a volatile mix.

I'd bet money there's something else going on here though.

**ELA** · Posted On: 7/09/2012 6:13pm

Originally Posted by tgace

I think you tend to see certain types of people drawn to certain arts more than you can say that practicing a secific art will cause someone to become unhinged.

Excellent point, and I agree 100%. I think you can know a whole lot about a person by knowing which art they practice as an adult.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 7/09/2012 10:12pm

Originally Posted by ELA

I think you can know a whole lot about a person by knowing which art they practice as an adult.

If this was true there would be no MMAers with college degrees. Everyone KNOWS it is violent and full of dumb meatheads.

**ELA** · Posted On: 7/10/2012 1:21pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake

If this was true there would be no MMAers with college degrees. Everyone KNOWS it is violent and full of dumb meatheads.

LOL! I'm one of those college educated MMAers so point well taken.

I suppose what I mean is if you're 33 and do push hands for self defense you can probably deduce a lot about that person from that fact alone.

gwog · Posted On: 7/10/2012 8:09pm

I'm still not on board with the "evil Paul Vunak" idea.

When someone has 100% control of a business, the website, the accountants, all the financial arrangements, and there is a dispute of some sort, it's difficult for me to see the other guy as the instigator.

What it looks to me like is that they were using Vunak's name and reputation and getting a business running while intentionally undercutting and undermining his position. "Being helpful?" "I'll just handle all the financial arrangements while you kick back and be the teacher?"

Not buying that.

How's this sound. You be the name, we'll sell your material and your methods and we'll use your name and reputation as a martial artist to sell it.

But I'm going to maintain full control of the website and all the financial arrangements.

What I wonder is what really happened and what it took for Vunak to blow his top, to go completely round the bend that way.

You read those transcripts, what you're seeing there is a man who is absolutely desperate with rage and hanging onto his humanity by his toenails.

Personally, I will side with my teachers until the cows come home. I'm not about to enter into a financial arrangement with my teachers but if I did I would insist on setting it up so that they had full control of the business. If I did not do so there would be something extremely wrong with that picture.

If there were some form of dispute I would defer to my teachers. If there were a problem I would very gently bow to them as I moved out the door.

But then I would support them until the cows came home and I would not be slagging them on a forum. It's not up to me to support or not support Paul Vunak because I don't know him personally but he's directly upstream from me in the family and so my reflex is to support him.

As someone who has been involved in numerous businesses over the years my reflex is to be extremely suspicious of people who ended up with full control of the business and all the financial arrangements.

It sounds to me like Paul Vunak trusted these people implicitly. It sounds to me like he was more than a little naive if he allowed this to happen.

There is apparently something very bad going on with Mr. Vunak but I must say I support him and it's the responsibility of his students to stick by him through thick and thin. If his students are ending up with the business there is something very wrong with that state of affairs.

Mr Vunak went absolutely apeshit. He has a long standing reputation for being a little off-kilter. But if the students were backing the teach, this would not have happened.