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  1. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 10:36am


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KendalGuro View Post
    In the interest of intelectual rigor, let me cite my sources.
    Grandmaster Ernesto Presas
    Professor Remey Presas
    Tuhon Rodell Dagook
    Master Mipo Flores
    Four legendary masters, same story.
    They all told you that arnis de mano means "to harness the hands" (precisely those words)? Did they write this down anywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by KendalGuro View Post
    The debate over the term “arnis” is almost as fruitless as debating the history of the work "kali" and there is rarely any consensus.
    If consensus is your goal, then yes it's fruitless.
  2. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 10:50am

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    Exactly the reason people should undertake more research and qualify their statements. Instead, it's used as an excuse for anyone to make sweeping generalizations about FMA as a whole and not have to support their assertions at all.
    Fair nuff'.
  3. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 11:01am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The PI has plenty of languages and dialects, but isn't "arnis de mano" Spanish?
  4. KendalGuro is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 11:07am


     Style: Arnis de Mano

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes Tim, conveniently they provided me a certified transcript of every conversation and instruction that I have been provided over 20 years. Its complete with all sources properly cited and has a bibliography. Come on by, I'll show it to you.
  5. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 11:32am


     Style: fma

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KendalGuro View Post
    Yes Tim, conveniently they provided me a certified transcript of every conversation and instruction that I have been provided over 20 years. Its complete with all sources properly cited and has a bibliography. Come on by, I'll show it to you.
    So, either you believe that I'm an idiot who asked you for a transcript of a conversation, or you chose to ignore the possibility that I was asking if they have written down that particular translation (some of them being authors), and you decided to use sarcasm to avoid the answer. Either way, it looks like you're not interested in further conversation, which is odd for someone who wants to clear up our misconceptions.
    Last edited by tim_stl; 7/18/2012 11:44am at .
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 11:43am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KendalGuro View Post
    This brings up several interesting topics.
    Let me start by saying that yes, I believe that stick work does increase your hand speed.
    Now down the rabbit hole….
    First – Several of you are under the common misconception that arnis/kali/escrima (FMA) are weapon based arts. This is incorrect.
    One of the older names of the arts is “Arnis de Mano” which translates to “to harness the hands.” I don’t swing or flick my stick. I move my hands. The weapon follows my hands, and I do not allow my hands to chase the weapon, nor do I allow my weapon to move uncontrolled. My hand never leaves my weapon. I focus on keeping my full grip engaged throughout all of the movements of my stick. A FMArtist will use any weapon that is available to them, but they do not have different styles of movement for each style of weapon.
    The FMAs are just as much empty handed arts as any karate or gung fu, the only difference is that I put something in my hand. In fact GM Arthur Sikes described the traditional movement as “gung fu with sticks.”
    This (stick work) has many benefits including teaching hand eye coordination by enhancing visual input via a long stick. But that’s really not what you asked so…
    Lets say your want to swing your bo staff faster in a kata….to accomplish this, you train with a longer one or a much heavier bo not a lighter or shorter one. The after some time training with the heavy bo, you then go back to your normal or a lighter bo. The movement is faster, the weapon moves faster, and you are faster in your movements. Arnis is like this, in that my hands train to be fast with sticks in them, I take out the stick, then my hand moves faster without the added weight and resistance. It’s a basic principal of resistance training for explosive muscle reactions or plyometrics.
    The stick work teaches you body mechanics, how to generate speed, how to be accurate.
    It teaches you angles, physics, and methods of attacks.
    It programs your mind and body to function the same whether you have a weapon in your hand (improvised or made) or nothing in your hand.
    So does that answer your question? Or does it raise another?

    As to perception, do the FMAs have an advantage? No?
    Repetitive training is the only way to train your perception.
    Now do the FMAs have an advantage, perhaps…. because we are always trying to hit you with every swing, and we swing a lot. And I will tell you with all sincerity, you will never learn to wield a weapon unless you train with a weapon, but as my teacher told me…everything is a stick.
    One thing to remember….the FMAs don’t have a monopoly on these principles.
    When you tell people they are wrong, especially fellow practitioners with years in FMA, you should expect debate and call for citations.
    Instead, you go this route:
    Quote Originally Posted by KendalGuro View Post
    Yes Tim, conveniently they provided me a certified transcript of every conversation and instruction that I have been provided over 20 years. Its complete with all sources properly cited and has a bibliography. Come on by, I'll show it to you.
    To clarify, your posts read like this:
    KG: Many of you are wrong because what you said doesn't match what I heard.
  7. KendalGuro is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 12:17pm


     Style: Arnis de Mano

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excuse me for the use of the term “incorrect,” perhaps if I said that I disagreed or was taught differently, read differently or believed differently. And while you are at it, excuse me for being a sarcastic ass. Consider my hand slapped, but I cannot guaranty it won’t happen again.

    The translation of the word “Arnis” is not the foundation of my assertion that Arnis is not a weapon based art. So beyond my “loose translation” is there anything else in my post you would like to discuss?
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2012 12:22pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, you can be sarcastic. We are all sarcastic. I'm just saying, your reaction is strange considering, you basically told everyone how to train.

    If you are going to be sarcastic, expect sarcasm right back at you.
  9. Flipper is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2012 2:39pm


     Style: PTK

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not to support or attack anyone's POV here but..

    There are so many dialects here, and one does not sound at all similar to the other. My experience is that the word "arnis" is understood in some provinces to mean the stick itself. While in some other areas the stick is known as "baston". Escrima and Arnis are widely used to describe the art itself, while the word Kali is primarily used in one province (that I know of anyway). This is based on my living on Manila all my life and and speak only one dialect, which is tagalog (not called Filipino). I know it can be confusing sometimes.

    Arnis de mano is probably spanish and it's not surprising considering the 333 year history of the country under spanish rule. spanish has a huge influence on our language, which also has words from chinese and other asian languages.

    As for my point with this thread, I was curious if others have experienced some benefit to their FMA training outside of weapon work, such as empty handed striking speed and reaction time.
  10. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    7/21/2012 3:27pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KendalGuro View Post
    First – Several of you are under the common misconception that arnis/kali/escrima (FMA) are weapon based arts. This is incorrect.
    I think I disagree with this statement. I think the more common consensus among all martial artists is that arnis/kali/eskrima is a weapons based art. Although not all FMAs are weapons based like sikiran, I would argue that one could say kali/arnis/eskrima is a weapons based art. The practitioner learns to wield the weapon from day one in most cases, and empty hand techniques are used that compliment the training done with a weapon. The motions used with the weapon are the same if there is no weapon, therefore if the empty hand movements come from movements done with the weapon then the art is weapons based. If arnis/kali/eskrima is not a weapons based art I don't know what is.

    Perhaps kendalguro was just trying to make a point that arnis/eskrima/kali is not solely limited to weapons?
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