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  1. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 4:22am


     Style: Striking, grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Those principles are so generic they're irrelevant. If you'd use 45 degree footwork and circular blocking, that would be something.

    BBT is notorious for using undefined flowery concepts to describe whatever the shidoshi imagines with some reference to eastern pseudo-philosophy.

    Yes you keep repeating that BBT doesn't translate well to the cage. Then how does it translate in sparring, how do you apply effective training methods?
    The only proof you have provided is a cage match, so that's what can be judged, nothing more.
  2. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 4:27am


     Style: Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I also said we don't film our sparring, yet. When I do, I'll gladly post it. [ back to that whole reading thing ; ) ]

    You think I don't want you to see it being used effectively? That's the whole point of the project.

    It translates well in sparring because you wear headgear in sparring and therefore can rake faces, boshiken into red man style body armor [ without breaking ribs ]. Sparring has safe guards in place so you can emulate more dangerous moves without sending your buddy [ or yourself ] to the hospital.

    As for sparring done without gear, that is the portion of this project that involves singling out techniques that are suitable for the cage. Hoko no Kamae is one, as I just described it can be used to clinch. Hicho is another, it can be used as a shincheck. The list goes on and on my friend but it's a work in progress.

    P.S I'm not a Shidoshi, I don't flower concept or sugar coat anything [ I try to be very blunt and explain my points in detail ] and I could give ten thousand flying hello kitty dolls worth a **** about any mystic principals. I'll leave that to Stephen Hayes and the rest of the Kuji-In worshiping weirdos.

    P.P.S What would be outstanding is to get some other fighters from different arts, even people from here and film gearless sparring against them with an MMA rule list of usable BBT techniques, which is something I would be completely up for. Again, all in time and also another reason I made a user name instead of lurking.
    Last edited by Gigatron; 9/03/2012 4:35am at .
  3. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 4:39am


     Style: Striking, grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you want to use BBT terminology to define common concepts or use it as a theoretical framework, that's fine. It just doesn't make the point of it being a practical art. The things that work in it are common to many MA's and the things specific to it are generally impractical.

    Also, I don't care about when it works or why you can't film, it's just not relevant to the discussion in general. If you're just going to augment kickboxing style striking, wrestling and groundwork with a top layer of clawing, vital points and small joint manipulations it makes the case even stronger for BBT not having a solid basis.
  4. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 4:43am


     Style: Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    BBT and Japanese arts in general are just as old as those arts and styles, those concepts are nothing new, sorry to burst your bubble.

    Wrestlers did not invent take downs. The Thais did not event elbow strikes.

    Those moves are not unique to any art, your own statement defeats you.

    That's like saying Jujutsu throws work, but Judo is pointless because the throws originate from Jujutsu. Just stop and go train.

    BBT consists of multiple techniques from kicks/punches/throws/ukemi/weapons.

    Certainly sounds like a Mixed Martial Art concept to me and thus viable for someone wanting that type of training. IF [ back to the original post ] they can find good people to train with.

    It's not my fault people can't figure things out or are too scared to compete.

    Or in your case debate instead of repeating BBT doesn't work! And when I state things that do work, you say OH NO! those are from other arts! Uh... almost every move is shared across multiple arts. Thanks.
    Last edited by Gigatron; 9/03/2012 4:47am at .
  5. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 4:54am


     Style: Striking, grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Never said they were new, you keep adding logical fallacies with every post.

    Do you really want to put BBT striking against Thai striking. Seriously?
    Judo throws are a hell of a lot more effective than BBT throws, origin is not the point, technique and training methods are.
    Judokas generally throw more effectively than JJJ practitioners, because of training methods, BBT has no training methods which advance effective fighting.
    If there would be proper training methods, the striking would have adapted to something similar to, well... striking.
    I'll go train when I have class, thanks.
  6. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 5:12am


     Style: Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Never said they were new, you keep adding logical fallacies with every post.

    Do you really want to put BBT striking against Thai striking. Seriously?
    Judo throws are a hell of a lot more effective than BBT throws, origin is not the point, technique and training methods are.
    Judokas generally throw more effectively than JJJ practitioners, because of training methods, BBT has no training methods which advance effective fighting.
    If there would be proper training methods, the striking would have adapted to something similar to, well... striking.
    I'll go train when I have class, thanks.
    Thai striking does not intimidate me, sorry. So yes I would. I can elbow and throw knees/stomp kick too. Your point? [ All moves documented in BBT denshos fyi ]

    Judo throws are more effective than BBT throws? Since when is bending over more effective/safer than standing up and reaping legs? Last time an MMA fighter tried his Judo horseshit on me he got clinched and torn up. There's this cute little thing called no gis in the cage and since you can't grab flesh in the cage per rules, doing it the BBT way would get him DQed so all his gi grabbing Judo throws are out the window. BBT throws can be done with gis or by using flesh, works great on fat people.

    I'm well aware the Booj doesn't have effective training methods, that has nothing to do with the art............. Training methods and the art itself are two different things. Muay Thai's training methods involves kicking trees, do I kick trees? No I kick pads and heavy bag bottoms... same result.

    The only fallacy here is the fact you can't read or obviously never read my original post and keep getting owned with your lack of knowledge on these arts and fighting in general. I'm done. Have fun at class bro.

    P.S one of the main things I brought up in my original post was that my group does things differently than the Booj. Derp derp, and thus your comments about BBT training methods mean nil.
    Last edited by Gigatron; 9/03/2012 5:18am at .
  7. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 5:29am


     Style: Striking, grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you'll be back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gigatron View Post
    Thai striking does not intimidate me, sorry. So yes I would. I can elbow and throw knees/stomp kick too. Your point? [ All moves documented in BBT denshos fyi ]
    A knee is not a technique. An MT roundhouse lowkick, a boxing straight, a shotokan high kick. Those are techniques, they involve more then just naming a body part.
    No effective way of striking is to my knowledge described in the precious denshos, prove me wrong.
    Judo throws are more effective than BBT throws? Since when is bending over more effective/safer than standing up and reaping legs? Last time an MMA fighter tried his Judo horseshit on me he got clinched and torn up. There's this cute little thing called no gis in the cage and since you can't grab flesh in the cage per rules, doing it the BBT way would get him DQed so all his gi grabbing Judo throws are out the window.
    Cute how suddenly effectiveness in MMA is the standard, a standard you refuse for BBT.
    But all's good, easy to verify

    I'm well aware the Booj doesn't have effective training methods, that has nothing to do with the art.
    do a search on the forum and see which type of martial "artist" uses that argument.

    Training methods and the art itself are two different things. Muay Thai's training methods involves kicking trees, do I kick trees? No I kick pads and heavy bag bottoms... same result.
    That's not a different method, it's a different tool.

    The only fallacy here is the fact you can't read or obviously never read my original post .
    Honestly, I tried.
  8. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 7:47am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigatron View Post
    In fact, one of the only reasons I made a user name and decided to stop lurking Plasma was reading some of your posts from the past, I really felt your pain in trying to defend what could be a fantastic skill set from the hordes of posers and imbeciles who have hidden under the art's mantle. With that being said, I felt the need to vent and or converse with you on what made you switch to the styles you practice now. Anyone who has access to the denshos and has competed in some form of sport art or even military based combat can see some useful techniques within. I don't care who wants to argue that point, I will -never- agree that the art is useless. Just useless people doing it wrong.
    The logic was really straight forward. Over the years of training, I felt while the randori we did at my school was necessary, I found the techniques that were working the best were the Judo techniques as we teach, train and compete under the USJA. In fact class really turned into doing Japanese Jujutsu drills and techniques during the classes and doing Judo Randori after. This lead to Judo competitions and training straight Judo. While I learning new scrolls and techniques, it really felt like an academic exercise rather than fighting. So I switched to do Judo full time. It was already part of what we were being taught and used for the kids classes. As a USJA school it was simple enough to start it with the Adults that wanted it. Unfortunately, as time pasted the number of adult students that wanted to compete Judo at my school diminished.

    I had done a few years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in College and that is how I found Judo is the first place. So I figured I'd go back. I had a friend training under one of the top American Black Belts and invited me to come by. Even after all my years of Judo & JJJ I was getting tooled by their blue belts. So in the effort to continue to improve, I switched my training over there full time. I value the time I trained in those Ryu-ha as I feel my timing and footwork as it pertains with weapons is top notch. I still go ahead and spar with Kali instructors from time to time and I prove more than a handful for them. All that is straight sabaki and counter attack out of Ryu-Ha I practiced. However, once the fight goes into a Close Combat range, Judo and BJJ has proven far superior.
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 7:47am

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     Style: xingyi

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    P.S. You just got this moved to YMAS
    P.P.S. You better wear your Red Man Suit while you type.
  10. Gigatron is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2012 11:43am


     Style: Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma View Post
    The logic was really straight forward. Over the years of training, I felt while the randori we did at my school was necessary, I found the techniques that were working the best were the Judo techniques as we teach, train and compete under the USJA. In fact class really turned into doing Japanese Jujutsu drills and techniques during the classes and doing Judo Randori after. This lead to Judo competitions and training straight Judo. While I learning new scrolls and techniques, it really felt like an academic exercise rather than fighting. So I switched to do Judo full time. It was already part of what we were being taught and used for the kids classes. As a USJA school it was simple enough to start it with the Adults that wanted it. Unfortunately, as time pasted the number of adult students that wanted to compete Judo at my school diminished.

    I had done a few years of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in College and that is how I found Judo is the first place. So I figured I'd go back. I had a friend training under one of the top American Black Belts and invited me to come by. Even after all my years of Judo & JJJ I was getting tooled by their blue belts. So in the effort to continue to improve, I switched my training over there full time. I value the time I trained in those Ryu-ha as I feel my timing and footwork as it pertains with weapons is top notch. I still go ahead and spar with Kali instructors from time to time and I prove more than a handful for them. All that is straight sabaki and counter attack out of Ryu-Ha I practiced. However, once the fight goes into a Close Combat range, Judo and BJJ has proven far superior.
    Sabaki is very underrated and misunderstood IMO but I'm glad I'm not the only person who has utilized angling and footwork principals from the Ryu-ha for other purposes.

    Out of curiosity were you having issues with the blue belts in a straight up BJJ style match or randori that goes from striking/stand up to a BJJ standing submission/ground game?

    And as for the YMAS/Red Man suit comment?

    Fake, let me know when you'd like to come compete in the cage instead of spewing garbage about training gear. Almost every MMA camp I've ever been to, the coaches utilize body armor in some form to absorb full force strikes from fighters. You're a complete imbecile if you think that was offensive or witty. And in the regard I was referring to? Was to simulate weapon usage and facial strikes with caged headgear. [ eyes, nose, facial flesh, etc ].

    The more I read from some of you, the more you seem like you have zero understanding of how fighters train yet get pissy when a question is answered in full detail and you have zero replies to it other than nonsense. I mean, if I'm wrong, by all means explain to me why you wouldn't wear head gear to train face/head shots? Or why you wouldn't wear torso armor when someone is practicing full knee shots to your ribs during randori?
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