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  1. thrutch is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/16/2012 5:34am


     Style: Shorin Ryu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Probably worth mentioning that Motobu was an early proponent of the Bullshido ethos:

    "Nothing is more harmful to the world than a martial art that is not effective in actual self-defense"
  2. RurikGreenwulf is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/18/2012 10:54pm


     Style: Humbleness

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by thrutch View Post
    Probably worth mentioning that Motobu was an early proponent of the Bullshido ethos:

    "Nothing is more harmful to the world than a martial art that is not effective in actual self-defense"
    Indeed!
    Thats something that is very important and that he put aliveness as a n important way to train.
    I wonder how karate would be now If Motobu's ideas of training would have sticked rather thant funakoshi's
    I think Karate in general would be more similar to boxing in being more alive and Think if Oyama would have trained with Motobu just think of that
  3. WoodyCorpus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/26/2012 8:27am


     Style: American Kenpo, Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Motubu did play a role in the martial upbringing of Oyama, so to speak, as many biographies found online stipulate that the stories about Motobu inspired Oyama to launch challenges of his own.
    It is my opinion that Motobu's style was more in line of what we now know as kickboxing. It would've been wonderfull if he had written more about it.
  4. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/10/2012 4:43pm


     

    -1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The one footnote that Rurik neglected to translate says "2. There are certain sources that say that it was a wrestler." (my translation) "luchador" is the last word here, literally fighter or wrestler, and in context, contrasted with "boxeador," presumably refers to either a practitioner of some foreign grappling technique or a foreign judoka, if the *King* magazine story is taken as getting the general idea right.
  5. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/12/2012 6:39pm


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Christ, look at his Forearms. FFS.
  6. theAsthmatic is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/05/2012 2:48pm


     Style: sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My history is pretty rusty, but I am fairly sure that the Russians didn't have organized boxing until after World War II. We had fist fighting, or kulachniy boy, as a tradition for much longer than that, but there are no champions, much less world champions in that because it's just a tradition.

    Which somewhat casts doubt on the story of him defeating a Russian boxing champion in 1925. I guess it's possible for it to have been a Russian fighter based in the U.S. or Australia or something, but unlikely. Still a neat story.
  7. ChuckWepner is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2012 8:41am


     

    1
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    Quote Originally Posted by theAsthmatic View Post
    My history is pretty rusty, but I am fairly sure that the Russians didn't have organized boxing until after World War II. We had fist fighting, or kulachniy boy, as a tradition for much longer than that, but there are no champions, much less world champions in that because it's just a tradition.

    Which somewhat casts doubt on the story of him defeating a Russian boxing champion in 1925. I guess it's possible for it to have been a Russian fighter based in the U.S. or Australia or something, but unlikely. Still a neat story.
    There have even been Boxing Federations in Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan under the Soviets since the 1920s, so I think you are a bit off.

    More to the point, Queensberry rules fighting was introduced in Tsarist Russia in the late 19th century. There was, as you say, already a very long and rich tradition of fist-fighting there. There were organized tournaments held in boxing at least by the early 20th century. I'll have to check, but I believe the was a national championship tournament held in 1914. That those involved in boxing prior to the Revolution might have found themselves traveling in other nearby countries in the 1920s isn't that hard to believe. This doesn't of course tell us what happened in any particular instance.

    Under the Bolsheviks, at first Russians and others subject to Soviet rule were held out of international athletic competition on the grounds that sport should be about physical fitness, etc., not about competition. This was rejected as a bourgeois attitude leading to the reserving of sport as a leisure activity for the elite in the 1930s and leagues were formed to promote participation in various sports, including boxing, which (after the interruption of WWII) eventually led to the great expansion of international competition. There are those who regard the shift in state theory about sport as motivated by a cynical desire to promote nationalist feeling through the use of international athletic competition, but we all know no one would ever soil the purity of athletics that way.

    This is a rough account based on reading I've done on this. Others more expert on Russian history should feel free to correct it. I'll try to post a citation with details for the pre-Revolution Russian Championship tournament.
  8. theAsthmatic is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/06/2012 11:11am


     Style: sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You're probably right. There was a lot of propaganda in my education and I am basically just going by what my father told me. I am not allowed to post links, but I checked the boxing history page of the Russian Boxing Federation and a couple of other russian sites (I know, hardly historic, but my grandmother wouldn't pick up the phone). According to them:

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    На единую организационную основу бокс был поставлен в России в 1918 году, когда было введено всеобщее военное обучение, и бокс вошел в его обязательную программу. В 1920 году Советские власти запретили бокс. А в 1926 благодаря всесоюзной дискуссии, которую организовали сторонники бокса ( в то время! ), он был опять разрешен, и в том же году прошел первый чемпионат СССР.

    Первый международный матч советские боксеры провели в 1928 году со сборной Швейцарии и выиграли его. В 1935 году была создана Всесоюзная секция бокса ( в 1959 переименована в федерацию бокса СССР ). В 1989 году была организована Всесоюзная ассоциация профессионального бокса.

    В Олимпийских играх наша сборная впервые учавствовала в 1952 в Хельсинки ( 2 серебра и 4 бронзы )
    -----

    The soviet government forbid boxing starting in the 1920's. By 1926 it was allowed again, but had suffered a strong loss in interest. It began to make a recovery in 1935 with some fighters performing well abroad. Russia established the Unified Boxing League in 1935, But the first Soviet boxing team did not form until the olympics of 1952. The USSR Boxing federation was officially formed in 1959.

    So it can definitely be seen both ways which means there would not have been anything to prevent a journalist from recording the actions of a Russian boxing champion. My mistake.
  9. upkick is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2013 8:09am


     Style: karate/kickbox

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    The story of fighting the large, overconfident, Oriental-hating Russian boxer has become a fairly popular East Asian martial arts myth. I've heard basically the same story said about several different old masters.
    I dont understand why the scenario seems so implausible to you. People were generally fiercely nationalistic and racist back then. For a large often drunk foreigner upon finding he was a head taller than everyone around him to decide to have some kicks roughing up the natives was/is not at all unusual It must be acknowledged that this was the era of scientific racism. The context of a sporting match to be used as a venue to promote the natural dominance of one's race was in keeping with the nationalistic agendas at play.


    read theodore roosevelts account of jj practioner Yamashita choking out a champion midddle weight american wrestler grant. "Wrestling is simply a sport with rules almost as conventional as those of tennis, while jiu jitsu is really meant for practice in killing or disabling our adversary."

    Keep in mind this was around the time of the Russo Japanese war which the Japanese similarly won despite not being given a chance at the time.It was a shock to the political climate of the time

    Perhaps your reactionary skepticism is a result of the over the top sense of mystery pop culture has bestowed on marttial arts.however, at the time for a smaller man to dominate a larger stronger opponent was shocking. especially with a limited understanding of the techniques performed what occured defied logic for the general public. the exact same thing happened when gene labelle choked out that boxer. the crowd didnt know what happened and almost rioted. It should be noted that TR was well aware of this embarrassment and sought a moral victory in a defeat to what most regarded as a smaller weaker people.


    . "With a little practice in the art I am sure that one of our big wrestlers or boxers, simply because of his greatly superior strength, would be able to kill any of those Japanese, who though very good men for their inches and pounds are altogether too small to hold their own against big, powerful, quick men who are as well trained."


    anyway around this time matches between the american catch wrestlers and judo guys were notorious. and plenty of catch guys won.
    Last edited by upkick; 2/12/2013 8:14am at .
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