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  1. ZenMMA is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 7:11am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Leg Locks, Toe Holds Etc..

    Hi guys,

    It may well be obvious, but can someone tell me why Leg Locks, toe Holds and other Leg based submissions seem be pretty rare in MMA fights.

    Is it because training these and getting them wrong can lead to serious injury so people tend not to practise these as much as they should?
  2. Ki-ai is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 7:59am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know for sure but I think it is a combination, first off:

    As you said, people are not used to it. If you have trained for years in getting the armbar, but "only" heelhooked people for months, the armbar WILL be a safer bet. In BJJ and Judo, footlooks are restricted, even in at more experienced level of competition.

    It is also, perhaps, not as easy to get in an MMA-match. If you are in my guard, striking, you open yourself up to armbar, triangle etc, not to a kneebar.
  3. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 8:27am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMMA View Post
    Hi guys,

    It may well be obvious, but can someone tell me why Leg Locks, toe Holds and other Leg based submissions seem be pretty rare in MMA fights.

    Is it because training these and getting them wrong can lead to serious injury so people tend not to practise these as much as they should?
    At the simplest level, I'd say it's a lack of familiarity. Many (most?) submission grappling gyms tend to focus on upper body submissions over lower body subs. The exception to this would be SOMBO, but there are all too few SOMBO gyms in the U.S.

    I was going too type a paragraph describing how the margin for error is smaller on lower versus upper body subs, but I'm uncertain if this is correct. I do know that failure to maintain proper position on many lower body subs will expose you to going from a dominant position to a weaker one (i.e. lose the kneebar, get your back taken), but I'd like to hear Omega or Sambo Steve's opinion before deciding for myself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ki-ai View Post
    I don't know for sure but . . .
    If your posting in the technical forum and this is how you start, you might consider not posting.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  4. Kintanon is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 8:59am

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     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A combination of sweat, the legs being stronger than the arms, positional and control considerations, general familiarity, and risk/reward is responsible for the lower overall quantity of lower body submissions.
    But, you just have to look at a guy like Rousimar Palhares to see that leglocks CAN be used incredibly effectively within the context of MMA. Most people don't seem to love them enough to train them the way Palhares does though, so we don't see them as much.
  5. PointyShinyBurn is online now
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 9:12am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Everything in MMA grappling (at least the way it tends to get judged in the US) is secondary to maintaining top position. You don't see many armbars from mount either, for the same reason.
  6. ZenMMA is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 10:40am


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I recently obtained "Gokors Leg locks" volume 1-5....I am going to be in Thailand at the end of this month for a couple of months training Muay Thai, Im tempted to spend my down time trying to learn some of the leglocks in the video, they do look incredibly effective.





    I think you would have a real advantage over your average MMA fighter if you become proficient in leg locks as there seems to be a lack of training in both offensive and defensive leg lock techniques.
    Last edited by ZenMMA; 3/22/2012 11:08am at . Reason: Added videos
  7. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 12:11pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenMMA View Post
    Hi guys,

    It may well be obvious, but can someone tell me why Leg Locks, toe Holds and other Leg based submissions seem be pretty rare in MMA fights.

    Is it because training these and getting them wrong can lead to serious injury so people tend not to practise these as much as they should?
    Because BJJ guys don't want to admit they're ignorant. I just got done doing a leg lock seminar last week and we touched base on this exact same question.
  8. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 4:01pm

    supporting member
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think Omega is correct here, training only arm/shoulder locks and chokes is like just throwing punches at the head. Going to the body/Leg locks aren't going to replace the upper body work, but they can be used to set up/complement it very well, and are game changers in their own right.

    Good grief I am awful at analogies.
  9. TaeBo_Master is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 5:53pm

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     Style: Judo, Jujitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omega is without a doubt the expert on leg locks specifically and grappling in general here. Especially for competition purposes.

    Personally, I think it's 80% what he said, and 20% a combination of other factors. Such as their being restricted in BJJ- and Judo-specific grappling competitions, which many fighters compete in before moving up to MMA. For that reason also, they get gradually removed from the coach's repertoire, which then means the students don't learn them. There are certain factors such as risk and such.

    Question to Omega and other grapplers who are proficient with leg locks: No doubt you're skilled at them and could use them in competition. Do you think that a moderately skilled leg lock opens a fighter up to greater risk than a moderately skilled arm-lock? In other words, do you have to have a high level of proficiency to make them worth using?
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  10. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 10:01pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Position over submission is the overriding mantra for successful grappling. This holds true regardless of whether you are competing in GI or No-GI, BJJ, Sambo, MMA.

    Leg submissions run the following gambit:

    Achilles Lock (straight)
    Knee Bars (straight)
    Calf Slicers (compression)
    Toe Hold (twisting)
    Heel Hook (twisting)

    Most BJJ schools do not spend enough time properly training on the positional control need prior to attempting any of these locks. Most experienced (competitive) players have a general understanding of the set-ups for some or all of these submissions. However, failure to set the submission up properly will invariabley result in you giving up what may have been a dominant position to take a chance going for the leg. By its very nature, if you fail to hit the sub, you will end up in a crappy position.

    In MMA, improper set-up for the attempted leg submission will get you mercilessly beat on as you are usually facing away from your opponent and have both of your hands working on the leg.

    Bottom line, if you don't know what you are doing, and you fail to secure the sub, you will end up in a disadvantageous position in both grappling and MMA scenarios.
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