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  1. jspeedy is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2012 11:36pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Help! he's grabbing my tip!

    I hope that title grabbed some attention. I have a question about breaking a specific grip while stick sparring.

    Here's a little background; I've started showing a friend some FMA and started sparring with him recently. I also train with a local FMA group (who I recently joined after moving) which I really enjoy but they don't pad up and spar or at least haven't yet. I've been working with a friend who lives close to my new residence for about a month showing him the basics of my system and we've been sparring the last couple of training sessions and he loves it. We pad up with fencing masks, lacrosse gloves, and elbow pads, use smaller diameter rattan sticks, and keep a controlled tempo id say 40-50% power to keep my newb student in a learning state of mind rather than an "oh ****" state of mind.

    The question; my sparring partner is a newb so he has some unorthodox tendencies that can present a challenge. When I spar an experienced guy if they grip my weapon they usually control the hand or grab the stick near the hand never just clinging on to the tip. However, in a close quarter scramble this guy has grabbed my tip on multiple occasions. The immediate answer I see to my question is to not leave my weapon where the opponent can grab the tip. I've heard the same advice in BJJ when I ask how to escape any number of precarious near submissions but there's always a last ditch option.

    So what do you do when a guy grabs your tip? In the heat of the sparring match my solution was to check the opponents weapon hand (with my free hand) until I could get a grip on his weapon. After grabbing his weapon I was able to use my right leg (closest to my weapon which was tightly grasped at the tip) to push/force his grip off my weapon. This technique worked more than once but I only see it as practical if you can first secure the opponents weapon. I'll add that although I'm fairly limber my stick is at about waist level and the same leg I use to free my stick I'm in the process of rehabbing from a patella fracture last september, therefore the move isn't too physically demanding.

    My technique is basically done quickly from a mexican standoff position where I have the opponents weapon hand (secured close to the hand) and he has my tip. I still am giving up balance to use the leg but hey it works. If his grip were closer to my hand i'd go for a number of quick "pops" to lift his hand from my weapon (which normally works) or go into an arm control situation. But because I have one end of my stick w/ added punyo and the opponent has the other end there is some distance (stick is 26 or so inches) and room for the opponent to adjust. I'll add that my opponent has weight and height on me too.
    Last edited by jspeedy; 5/17/2012 11:46pm at . Reason: on me
  2. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 1:27am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hmm, the tip should be the fastest moving part of the weapon, so it should be tricky to grab it. If you switch to a 2 handed grip like a bayonet, you should be able to easily lever their grip off or use 2 handed strikes to get a release. But the issue is that he's probably grabbing the tip and whacking with the stick with the other hand, so you've got that to contend with. The bayonet grip can also be used to block with the portion between the hands, so you could use that in between 2 handed leverages, along with circling to the outside of their swinging stick. Or, I imagine if you decide to close into a stalemate, you'd probably be on the winning side of things if you intercept closer to the wrist or hand. Recently in eskrido I've been working on controlling close to the hand in a way that doesn't allow them to insert an abanico or curbata, but my initial reaction is to just grab the wrist, which gives them some flailing capability.
  3. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 10:08am


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    This technique worked more than once but I only see it as practical if you can first secure the opponents weapon.
    Might just be the way I train, but that seems like priority #1 when you get into close range, so that's a good solution. Are you looking for a way to free your stick while your opponent's weapon is still free to hit you?


    Tim
  4. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 10:39am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was rereading what I wrote, and something kind of important occurs to me- when I was playing around with this problem a few years ago, my training partner was left handed, which kinda changes things up. The things I describe were easier in that context but are probably a lot more tricky against a right hander.
  5. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 11:14am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Take your free hand (we'll say it's your left), and grab your own stick just below his hand. Pull back with both hands, while simultaneously slamming into his chest with your left shoulder - I suspect you'll be able to get the stick back.
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 4:12pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you sparring with rules against clench and takedowns? Based on my limited experience, controling his weapon would be priority number one. I prefer doing this by enveloping his arm, close to the stick. And then go for a hip toss to the ground. If you can't do takedowns, can you throw knees? That would be another option after enveloping the arm. Putting your head into his head and pushing, then throwing some knees.

    Another thing I've done a few times that worked, was after enveloping his arm, jerking away from him as if he was pulling his arm through your arm pit. Every time I did that, he was forced to release the stick. So then you pick his up, and release yours. Then both of you have sticks again, but at least your arent tied up any more.

    That's just my experience, but I defer to the more experienced(read all of you) stick fighters.
    Combatives training log.

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  7. jspeedy is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 7:33pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    Might just be the way I train, but that seems like priority #1 when you get into close range, so that's a good solution. Are you looking for a way to free your stick while your opponent's weapon is still free to hit you?


    Tim
    Not particularly, I figure the safest thing for me to do is check the opponents weapon hand. So a way to free my stick with one hand is what I was originally thinking but i'm open to all options. I was also thinking that if I wasn't wearing head protection what would I do? Releasing the opponents weapon hand to free my own weapon might be a little risky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    Take your free hand (we'll say it's your left), and grab your own stick just below his hand. Pull back with both hands, while simultaneously slamming into his chest with your left shoulder - I suspect you'll be able to get the stick back.
    Not a bad suggestion I figure the shoulder if applied quickly has a chance at jamming any attempt for him to counter after I free his weapon hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Hmm, the tip should be the fastest moving part of the weapon, so it should be tricky to grab it. If you switch to a 2 handed grip like a bayonet, you should be able to easily lever their grip off or use 2 handed strikes to get a release. But the issue is that he's probably grabbing the tip and whacking with the stick with the other hand, so you've got that to contend with. The bayonet grip can also be used to block with the portion between the hands, so you could use that in between 2 handed leverages, along with circling to the outside of their swinging stick. Or, I imagine if you decide to close into a stalemate, you'd probably be on the winning side of things if you intercept closer to the wrist or hand. Recently in eskrido I've been working on controlling close to the hand in a way that doesn't allow them to insert an abanico or curbata, but my initial reaction is to just grab the wrist, which gives them some flailing capability.
    Sounds good, can you describe the bayonet grip I'm not sure I'm picturing it correctly? This technique reminds of a DBMA vid I saw where Crafty referenced swat club tactic where you grab your weapon one hand on each end and shove the chest of the opponents with the middle of the stick.
  8. jspeedy is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 7:48pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    Are you sparring with rules against clench and takedowns? Based on my limited experience, controling his weapon would be priority number one. I prefer doing this by enveloping his arm, close to the stick. And then go for a hip toss to the ground. If you can't do takedowns, can you throw knees? That would be another option after enveloping the arm. Putting your head into his head and pushing, then throwing some knees.

    Another thing I've done a few times that worked, was after enveloping his arm, jerking away from him as if he was pulling his arm through your arm pit. Every time I did that, he was forced to release the stick. So then you pick his up, and release yours. Then both of you have sticks again, but at least your arent tied up any more.

    That's just my experience, but I defer to the more experienced(read all of you) stick fighters.
    Yeah after rereading the thread I figured someone would mention grappling. For now I'm leaving out the ground work but standup grappling is in. Knees are out for me due to the recent patella fracture. I'm trying to keep it simple though due to the fact that my friend is a total newb to the martial arts and I only have minimal grappling knowledge.

    The technique you describe sounds like a pretty common "weaving" or "snake" type disarm. I find those disarms difficult to use as they are typically trained in dead patterns done while receiving a strike but it actually sounds perfect for my situation. He's got the tip of my weapon I check a few attempts at strikes to my head and body, then when the time is right I can wrap his weapon hand and go for the disarm if I can't pull off the disarm one handed I can resort to releasing my weapon only to take his, there's a good chance I can use his weapon to reign down blows on him before he can pick up the stick I just dropped. I know your newish to FMA but that sounds like a great solution. I'll try it out this weekend if my friend can get up and train, i'll let you know how it goes. Of course, now that I'm aware of the fact that my tip is getting grabbed it may not happen. I might have to give him the grip so I can work the weaving technique.
  9. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 10:46pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, even a blind squirrel can find a nut every once in a while!! ;)
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

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  10. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2012 10:50am


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jspeedy View Post
    Not particularly, I figure the safest thing for me to do is check the opponents weapon hand. So a way to free my stick with one hand is what I was originally thinking but i'm open to all options. I was also thinking that if I wasn't wearing head protection what would I do? Releasing the opponents weapon hand to free my own weapon might be a little risky.
    Well, then the good thing about him grabbing the end of the stick is that you have a lot of freedom to move your stick hand. There are a couple of simple ways to rip the stick out of his grip that involve big circles to generate a lot of torque - hard to describe, easy to show, but I'll try one. Assuming you're a righty, by your avatar picture, and that he grabs the end of the stick in a way that if you were to let go, he would have a 'normal' grip on the stick (not a reversed one) - lift the punyo up (like doing a roof block, cross block, or whatever you call a tip-down block against a forehand or overhead strike), then make a big clockwise circle (like doing a downward backhand redondo, or a forehand strike to his left leg) real hard. The goal is to twist it out of his grip, but it's easy to get a hit to his leg or continue through with a redondo if you are successful. The particular path your hand takes depends on the position of his hand, so that's another reason it's hard to describe. This actually works better against people that are taller than you.


    Tim
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