Eurogeddon

[DCS]

Because they weren't bankrupting themselves by awarding each other non-productive jobs with generous pensions out of public funds, like most of Europe.

Bring back the guillotine, citoyens!!! Banksters and politicians heads gonna roll.

:D

[Hiro Protagonist]

You know, there is is famous story about a whole Spanish armada sinking itself in despair and terror after seeing the face of one Englishwoman...

[madmonkey]

You know, there is is famous story about a whole Spanish armada sinking itself in despair and terror after seeing the face of one Englishwoman...

There is also one about the whole spanish armada sinking due to having similar build quality to most spanish resorts or the one about the Spanish armada getting lost due to having no sense of direction, in fact the one voyage they did find something was when they hired an italian(columbus).

Though I must agree Spanish woman are generally of better quality than English they don't speak like chavs and drink themselves into a coma for a start.

[judoka_uk]

Front page of leading German business paper Handelsblatt "How to protect your money from the collapse of the Euro"

http://www.handelsblatt.com/finanzen...s/6785870.html

[Moenstah]

There were two problems with the Euro:

- 1 Countries weren't willing to have their books checked by a supranational body, because it would limit their sovereignty.

- 2 Countries were admitted (the southern ones, including France) that had economies unsuited for a hard currency.

They, led by France, cheated like mad to get in. I still remember that Spain, Italy and Greece were way over the 3% norm, and in two years 'tadaaaaaah' it was all in order. And everybody congratulated each other and went happily along, fairytale lalala



I have had it with the Greeks, they cannot be saved from themselves, unless you shoot 98% of their politicians. Always postponing reforms; and IF the reforms are passed through parliament, they stranded in the execution.

Have the Greeks already a cadastre? And how about the tax reforms - I know that Dutch advisors left disheartened and disillusioned after trying to help restructuring it (and seeing to it that taxes were actually collected).


And as regards some Brits here: Britain needs to be in the EU, how about your influence on the Continent, you can't have the Germans and the French rule it. You've blundered before in diplomacy and called it 'splendid isolation' , look at what it got you. Keep on dreaming that you're on an island, safe and secure. The economic ties with Europe are too strong to ignore the fact that if it all falls apart on the continent, the UK won't be affected.

oh and as regards this:

Indeed. They can pass it with a majority of 12/17. And as Odacon said the EU doesn't care what you think. If you vote the wrong way they'll either keep asking until you vote the way they want. Or they'll just ignore you like the did to the French and the Dutch.

Hold it! The majority of people voted AGAINST the treaty as they confused it with an impopular cabinet headed by Harry Potter II (Balkenende), so it was more a vote against the sitting government than against the treaty.

On a side note: itt is ridiculous to put such a complex treaty to a vote of simple 'yes/no' when even a lot of academically schooled voters haven't even skimmed over the summary of the damn thing.

I do agree that there is a major democratic gap between the European Parliament and Union, and the average voter. And that gap will never be closed as long as the national leaders of its member states keep playing the nationalist 'independence / sovereignty' card. (which they of course play as a federacy would largely deprive them of their power). Since the national leaders pull the strings in the EU, the current situation of 'limping on two different tracks at the same time' will continue.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Though I must agree Spanish woman are generally of better quality than English they don't speak like chavs and drink themselves into a coma for a start.

Englishwomen, in general, intimidate me.

I could grow my beard for ten years, and not have such a magnificient one as the Rose of Exmoor!

[judoka_uk]

There were two problems with the Euro:

- 1 Countries weren't willing to have their books checked by a supranational body, because it would limit their sovereignty.

This would be the supra-national body whose own accounts haven't been signed off for 17 years due to consistent massive fraud and misreporting.

And who whilst demanding massive austerity for all Eurozone member countries, votes through a huge increase in it's own budget to be paid for by those member countries undertaking austerity?

- 2 Countries were admitted (the southern ones, including France) that had economies unsuited for a hard currency.

This is part of the issue, but deeper than that is that it is 100% impossible to have monetary union without fiscal union. If you have fiscal union then you end nation state democracy.

The EU technocratic elites lied to everyone that you could have monetary union without fiscal union. Now they've been caught out and are trying to force through fiscal union without the consent of the people they're imposing it upon.

And as regards some Brits here: Britain needs to be in the EU, how about your influence on the Continent, you can't have the Germans and the French rule it.

Influence, on the continent... Hahahaha pull the other one. We have more influence over Alpha Centauri then we do over the EU.

Besides what do we care if the French and the Germans preside over an increasingly irrelevant, sclerotic, overly-bureaucratic, uncompetitive and impoverished customs union.

If they want to be King and Queen of the dung hill, well, they're welcome to it.

You've blundered before in diplomacy and called it 'splendid isolation' , look at what it got you. Keep on dreaming that you're on an island, safe and secure.

No, we didn't call it that, the phrase was invented by a Canadian called George Eulas Foster.

Also you will note that the phrase was coined in 1896.

Take a run of history from 1896 to 2012 and tell me which suffered worst? Europe or Britain?

Which had it's cities and factories flattened, it's population butchered and half of it fall under the yoke of Soviet tyranny?

Also we never rounded up our Jewish population to deport to Polish death camps unlike some Northern European countries...

Oh and that whole 'Island' thing worked out pretty well in 1914 and 1945...

The economic ties with Europe are too strong to ignore the fact that if it all falls apart on the continent, the UK won't be affected.

We'd only be affected by the collapse of the EU as long as remained trapped in it's cobweb of Byzantine regulations. If we left and were free to negotiate free trade deals with the parts of the world that are growing i.e pretty much every where but the EU. We'd do just fine.

And even whilst trapped inside the stifling customs union we still manage to export more than 50% of our goods outside of the EU.
Imagine what we could achieve if freed of the working time directive, trade negotiation restrictions of the customs union and the myriad of bonkers pieces of regulation that spew forth from Brussels like a great geyser on an hourly basis.

The growth and the future lies not in the sclerotic dying welfare states of Europe but in the thriving, thrusting nations of Asia and South America. Europe is a drain on prosperity not a source of it.

Hold it! The majority of people voted AGAINST the treaty as they confused it with an impopular cabinet headed by Harry Potter II (Balkenende), so it was more a vote against the sitting government than against the treaty.

I have no idea what a Harry Potter II or a Balkenende is, but to so blithely dismiss the result of a referrendum as people voting on an issue other than the question on the ballot paper. Shows the total and utter contempt that Europhiles have for ordinary people and the electorate.

It's disgusting that when the people vote Europhiles will grub out any meagre excuse as to why they can ignore the will of the people and carry on regardless with their own maniacal project.

If people vote NO it means NO. It doesn't mean you can take it as a YES, just because you think you know what's best for the poor benighted plebs.

I do agree that there is a major democratic gap between the European Parliament and Union, and the average voter.

Well yes quite. Given your above disdain for the democratic process. It's no wonder there's a democracy deficit.

And that gap will never be closed as long as the national leaders of its member states keep playing the nationalist 'independence / sovereignty' card. (which they of course play as a federacy would largely deprive them of their power). Since the national leaders pull the strings in the EU, the current situation of 'limping on two different tracks at the same time' will continue.

Totally stark raving bonkers lunacy.

Every time the people vote against the EU it's dismissed as 'populism' or as the malevolent effects of 'nationalists' whipping up public sentiment.

If you believe the average voter is so stupid, so easily mislead and should be ignored.

Why not do away with democracy all together and admit what the project is really about - aggregating power to a tiny, unaccountable, democracy hating, technocratic elite.

[Moenstah]

This would be the supra-national body whose own accounts haven't been signed off for 17 years due to consistent massive fraud and misreporting.

No

And who whilst demanding massive austerity for all Eurozone member countries, votes through a huge increase in it's own budget to be paid for by those member countries undertaking austerity?

Well, that is something I agree with, it is strange to ask for austerity whilst augmenting one’s own budget, especially as such a large part of it is wasted on the proctection of agriculture and fisheries. Although I understand the Commision’s reasoning of legal obligations etc., they might just see that now is not the time, but hey, it’s a bureaucratic institution, and such institutions always crave for more budget and power. Always good to stop those tendencies

This is part of the issue, but deeper than that is that it is 100% impossible to have monetary union without fiscal union. If you have fiscal union then you end nation state democracy.

So democracy, state and nation are all one? That’s amusing, I thought they were separate things. Democracy stands apart from the decision of a government about taxes and possible fiscal unions. A state has everything to say about taxation, and a nation, well, if you interpret that term as meaning ‘a state’ see the previous sentence.

It is still debated whether a fiscal union is needed or not. Methinks checking the account books of governments that are having the same currency is mandatory.

I have to admit to having a burning hatred for nation states; for the past hundred years the idiotic belief that a nation ought to have a state, and every state have one nation, has caused millions of dead in genocides, deportations, oh and wars.

The EU technocratic elites lied to everyone that you could have monetary union without fiscal union. Now they've been caught out and are trying to force through fiscal union without the consent of the people they're imposing it upon.

Influence, on the continent... Hahahaha pull the other one. We have more influence over Alpha Centauri then we do over the EU.

Glad you’re not an advisor on foreign affairs.... We love the British, and their engagement in the EU, if only to prevent the Berlin-Paris axis to steamroll over the interest of smaller states.

Besides what do we care if the French and the Germans preside over an increasingly irrelevant, sclerotic, overly-bureaucratic, uncompetitive and impoverished customs union.

opinions, opinions, opinions, some facts please?

Take a run of history from 1896 to 2012 and tell me which suffered worst? Europe or Britain?

Where is your empire now chap? >:D

Which had it's cities and factories flattened, it's population butchered and half of it fall under the yoke of Soviet tyranny?

Wirtschaftswunder rings a bell? Oh and your economy wasn't completely devastated, now was it?

Also we never rounded up our Jewish population to deport to Polish death camps unlike some Northern European countries...

*yawn* fail @ reductio ad Hitlerem.

You weren’t occupied, easy talking. Try hiding in a densily populated polder.
Pray ask the Latvians, Lithuanians, Polish, Belarussians, Hungarians and Ukrainians about their enthusiasm for exterminating their Jewish fellow countrymen.

Oh and that whole 'Island' thing worked out pretty well in 1914 and 1945...

Oh if the US hadn’t supported you, you would have had to eat rats and old car tires because of the wolfspacks.

We'd only be affected by the collapse of the EU as long as remained trapped in it's cobweb of Byzantine regulations. If we left and were free to negotiate free trade deals with the parts of the world that are growing i.e pretty much every where but the EU. We'd do just fine.

And even whilst trapped inside the stifling customs union we still manage to export more than 50% of our goods outside of the EU.
Imagine what we could achieve if freed of the working time directive, trade negotiation restrictions of the customs union and the myriad of bonkers pieces of regulation that spew forth from Brussels like a great geyser on an hourly basis.

So you are glad you would lose have your export if the EU and the Euro collapse, wow, just wow.



here’s some more:


Oh and that statement is funny considering that British export to non EU-countries, whilst growing from 1996 to 2011 (data courtesy of HM Revenue & Customs) is still lagging behind what is being dispatched to the EU, non EU import however, is growing strongly >:D The catching up is partially caused due to the Euro crisis, so you guys sell less because of it.

The growth and the future lies not in the sclerotic dying welfare states of Europe but in the thriving, thrusting nations of Asia and South America. Europe is a drain on prosperity not a source of it.

Oh yeah, Germany, Scandinavia, Flanders and The Netherlands are on the brink of famine and general economic mayhem, not contributing anything to the world.

I have no idea what a Harry Potter II or a Balkenende is, but to so blithely dismiss the result of a referrendum as people voting on an issue other than the question on the ballot paper. Shows the total and utter contempt that Europhiles have for ordinary people and the electorate.
It's disgusting that when the people vote Europhiles will grub out any meagre excuse as to why they can ignore the will of the people and carry on regardless with their own maniacal project.

You admit you don’t know jack **** about the circumstances of the Dutch no against that treaty, but go on bitching about the will of the people being thwarted. It was a no, but it wasn’t as strong as it was. Referenda about such complex matters are bullshit anyway. None of my friends (all academics) had read the bloody treaty: what the hell are you voting about, if you don’t know what it exactly entails?

Why not do away with democracy all together and admit what the project is really about - aggregating power to a tiny, unaccountable, democracy hating, technocratic elite.

It will be, as people like you don’t want to turn it into a federacy because of the ‘oh noes, them evil technocratic democracy haters’. Right now, the EU is a monstrum: it isn’t a federacy, nor is it a international economic community. I would say: screw those selfish national political leaders, screw the Commission, and make it a TRUE democratic federate state; each with it own nice mascot (the Queen or whatever) and an election government, and an elected parliament. Oh, and while at it, I also want to be able to vote on any politician and political party of my choice.
Keep out Bulgaria and Romania until they have dealt with their corruption and shot all their leaders, and everything will be fine.

[judoka_uk]

No

Err, yes...

The Court concludes that overall the supervisory and control systems are partially effective in ensuring the legality and regularity of payments underlying the accounts. The policy groups Agriculture and Natural Resources and Cohesion, Energy and Transport are materially affected by error. The Court’s estimate for the most likely error rate for payments underlying the accounts is 3.7 %.

“In the Court’s opinion, because of the significance of the matters described [above] on the legality and regularity of payments underlying the accounts paragraph, the payments underlying the accounts for the year ended 31 December 2010 are materially affected by error

http://eca.europa.eu/portal/pls/port.../1/9766724.PDF

I think the kids call that a #EpicFail

So democracy, state and nation are all one? That’s amusing, I thought they were separate things. Democracy stands apart from the decision of a government about taxes and possible fiscal unions. A state has everything to say about taxation, and a nation, well, if you interpret that term as meaning ‘a state’ see the previous sentence.

To have a demo cracy, you need a demos. There is no European demos, only Greeks, Germans, Italians and Dutch.

Indeed, hilariously, the efforts of the EU to break down the individual demos into an amorphous mass has only resulted in strengthening the individual demos of the nation states.



There is no European demos, there never will be a European demos. There is no European democracy and there never will be.

Glad you’re not an advisor on foreign affairs.... We love the British, and their engagement in the EU, if only to prevent the Berlin-Paris axis to steamroll over the interest of smaller states.

If you guys really love Britain and really want us to act as a counter weight to the Frogs and the Krauts then you better tell your elected representatives to start showing us some respect.

A good start would be to tell them to stop the backing the FTT pensioner's tax, which is specifically aimed at destroying our financial services industry.

opinions, opinions, opinions, some facts please?

GDP growth by country



As I said increasingly irrelevant, sclerotic, overly-bureaucratic, uncompetitive and impoverished customs union.

The growth is outside of Europe not within it.

Where is your empire now chap? >:D

Bout the same place as your's the German's, the French and the Spanish.

Wirtschaftswunder rings a bell? Oh and your economy wasn't completely devastated, now was it?

Marshall Plan and Japan ring a bell?

You weren’t occupied, easy talking.

Well yes, quite, not only did we not get occupied, but we had to rescue the rest of you.

Pray ask the Latvians, Lithuanians, Polish, Belarussians, Hungarians and Ukrainians about their enthusiasm for exterminating their Jewish fellow countrymen.

I don't see any Latvians, Lithuanians, Polish, Belarussians, Hungarians or Ukrainians telling me that their countries did better during the 20th century than mine.

So you are glad you would lose have your export if the EU and the Euro collapse, wow, just wow.

We wouldn't lose our exports. You think if the Euro and the EU collapses that the economies of the constituent nations of Europe will cease to import anything?

If they stopped importing from us they'd stop importing from the rest of the world too.

Are you guys going to ask Brazil and India for a bailout on the grounds they'd lose out on exports if you're economy went down the shitter?

Try telling the favela dwelling Mr. Silva or the slum dwelling Mr. Patel that he has to bail out fat, rich, home owning, two car driving, smart phone using, food and water wasting Western Europeans because they were too stupid to realise you can't have monetary union without fiscal union.

Bit of advice, if you want to be taken seriously in EU debates don't use the economist or the Grauniad as sources. It's like quoting Manuel Barroso, you just look naive.

Independent research shows that UK exports are now 51% outside of the EU.
http://www.cebr.com/wp-content/uploa...EU-exports.pdf

As the EU continues to tighten in it's economic death spiral the rest of the world is growing and we're exporting to the growing parts.

You admit you don’t know jack **** about the circumstances of the Dutch no against that treaty, but go on bitching about the will of the people being thwarted. It was a no, but it wasn’t as strong as it was. Referenda about such complex matters are bullshit anyway. None of my friends (all academics) had read the bloody treaty: what the hell are you voting about, if you don’t know what it exactly entails?

So what you're saying is that if even highly intelligent academics can't be trusted to vote the right way we can't trust ordinary people?

Where do you think that this logic of yours leads?

It will be, as people like you don’t want to turn it into a federacy because of the ‘oh noes, them evil technocratic democracy haters’. Right now, the EU is a monstrum: it isn’t a federacy, nor is it a international economic community. I would say: screw those selfish national political leaders, screw the Commission, and make it a TRUE democratic federate state; each with it own nice mascot (the Queen or whatever) and an election government, and an elected parliament.

So the reason that the EU isn't democractic or accountable now, is because we haven't surrendered enough powers to it? And as soon as we surrender the right amount of powers to it, it will magically become democratic and accountable?

Forgive me if, we Brits and our American cousins, raise somewhat of a sceptical eye brow at this.

[Vince Tortelli]

Oh if the US hadn’t supported you, you would have had to eat rats and old car tires because of the wolfspacks.

If anyone can clear this up for me, much obliged, but didn't Britain pretty much own the oceans during WW2, with most of the U-Boat kills being against American shipping during a period when we told the Brits we were quite sure we could handle naval affairs without your advice or assistance, MUM!