Eurogeddon

[Hiro Protagonist]

Enough revolutionary hyperbole, spaniard.

What's your plan ?

Apart from my secret wish that they reinstate the guillotine, so that I can fulfill my childhood dream and become the 21st century's Scarlet Pimpernel, I would argue that it is plainly obvious what must be done:

1. Put a tax on stock trade, at least until times get better. The companies touched by this are operating on a supranational level anyway, and there is no guarantee they keep their money in a nation that DOESN'T tax them.
   
2. Legally hold financial staggers as well as state employees personally accountable for financial losses with their own money. While that too has many drawbacks, it would eliminate the possibility of shark entrepreneurship.
   
3. Control overspending on a community level. Most money is burned over bullshit nobody cares about. Like, do you REALLY know if the company that does the new bridge in your town was the best offer?
   
4. Make systemic democratic education a bigger element in the educational system. My personal observation is that most people don't really know how the system works to begin with.
   
5. Rationalize the debate. Take the time to double-check scandalous or upsetting information, and you already take a lot of steam out of the demagogic engine.
   
6. Don't cut the legs, cut the head. Greece is not the problem. That the EU has been governed for about 20 years by people that were not elected democratically and gave **** about informing the "mundane" population about their work is the problem. Let's strive for a system where people actually know and care what was actually written in Giscard d'Estaing's proposal for an European constitution.
   
7. In the words of Stéphane Hessel, enrage and engage. Today's citizens are obsessed with their own minicapitalism that is based around looks, and leisure time activities. This self-imposed immaturity has hurt Western society more than any financial crisis could, and it has to end, like, right now.

See, gentlemen, I just single-handled saved the European Union!

Now, breakfast.

[Bneterasedmynam]

Hey if you guys over there in the "grown up nations" do break down and go to war over this, do us decendants here in the states a favor and leave us out of it. We have enough wars to pay for.

[Cullion]

[*]Put a tax on stock trade, at least until times get better. The companies touched by this are operating on a supranational level anyway, and there is no guarantee they keep their money in a nation that DOESN'T tax them.

Stop. Take a quiet moment to re-read this. Does it make sense?

Don't cut the legs, cut the head. Greece is not the problem. That the EU has been governed for about 20 years by people that were not elected democratically and gave **** about informing the "mundane" population about their work is the problem. Let's strive for a system where people actually know and care what was actually written in Giscard d'Estaing's proposal for an European constitution

So do you think that Greeks should continue to enjoy large numbers of non-productive public sector jobs on easy terms, and state funded retirement a decade or so younger than the northern Europeans being asked to pay for this, or not ?

Because if the answer is yes, then I'm not voting for this plan.

[Prone]

Yay, Germany-bashing, from Brits...who would've thought? I'm in London once to twice a month and I never feel that it is Europe anyway. That's what you always wanted. We even need to cross the border etc. with passports. The UK shuts itself off and I have no problem with that. But quit the Germany-bashing, WWII has been over for long enough now.

[Hiro Protagonist]

Stop. Take a quiet moment to re-read this. Does it make sense?

Unless it's language thing, I would guess "yes". Now, just because you disagree that wouldn't take the sense out of an opposing opinion.

So do you think that Greeks should continue to enjoy large numbers of non-productive public sector jobs on easy terms, and state funded retirement a decade or so younger than the northern Europeans being asked to pay for this, or not ?

Because if the answer is yes, then I'm not voting for this plan.

I think there is a general misunderstanding between how the north and the south of the EU view those things - at least outside of the parliaments.

While all this rather disturbing info might sound fairly new to you, it's really an issue people down here have been very aware of for the last decade, for the very least. So, why, after ten or fifteen years is there still this gross overspending in Greece, and why doesn't Spain have a working economy? - Well, because the people in charge since the mid-90s thought it wiser to comfort their own clienteles, than to orchestrate the structural and systemic changes everybody knew were necessary.

[judoka_uk]

Yay, Germany-bashing, from Brits...who would've thought? I'm in London once to twice a month and I never feel that it is Europe anyway. That's what you always wanted. We even need to cross the border etc. with passports. The UK shuts itself off and I have no problem with that. But quit the Germany-bashing, WWII has been over for long enough now.

Which Brit has been German bashing?

The only person blaming the Germans is Ashkelon and he claims to be from BXL, which I take to be Brussels, which last time I checked is in Belgium.

The Euro and the obsession with maintaining the EU is the reason Germans are being bashed. You're pretty much the only country in Europe with a good economy, you're pretty much the only one that is fiscally responsible, you're pretty much the only one with vaguely sensible labour laws, because of that you're successful and prosperous and the other countries hate that.

When we leave and it probably is a when now, not an if, Germany should come with us.

I've never understood the 'isolationist' argument. Do people really think that the EU will stop trading with the UK if we leave? That wealthy Germans will stop sending their kids to be educated at British public schools? That British businesses will find that French businesses will stop taking their calls and their orders?

Is Russia unable to trade with the EU? Turkey? Norway? Switzerland?

We're better off out and out we will go.

[Prone]

The option being "Germany is the problem and should leave", your opening statement etc. I work internationally for two large companies as freelance project manager (one is a large German company, one is a large US company) and it's so easy to see why some countries struggle: they have little to no work ethics, have no will to excell etc.

[Cullion]

Unless it's language thing, I would guess "yes". Now, just because you disagree that wouldn't take the sense out of an opposing opinion.

Do you genuinely believe that companies aren't likely to look at the tax burden when deciding where to trade a highly-mobile liquid asset ?
That's an utterly absurd thing to believe.

I think there is a general misunderstanding between how the north and the south of the EU view those things - at least outside of the parliaments.

While all this rather disturbing info might sound fairly new to you, it's really an issue people down here have been very aware of for the last decade, for the very least. So, why, after ten or fifteen years is there still this gross overspending in Greece, and why doesn't Spain have a working economy? - Well, because the people in charge since the mid-90s thought it wiser to comfort their own clienteles, than to orchestrate the structural and systemic changes everybody knew were necessary.

Tell me, did you consistently vote for lower public spending, less generous pensions during this period?

Most Greeks didn't.

[judoka_uk]

The option being "Germany is the problem and should leave", your opening statement etc. I work internationally for two large companies as freelance project manager (one is a large German company, one is a large US company) and it's so easy to see why some countries struggle: they have little to no work ethics, have no will to excell etc.

Well if you're designing a test of general opinion you have to include opinions that aren't yours, but other people hold. I also put in a 'My country should join the Euro option', which you can probably guess I don't agree with and a joke US option. I think you need to be a little less precious.

[thrutch]

I think most British are pretty appreciative of the fact that Germany contribute so heavily to the EU, because if they didn't it would be all on us.

I find very little anti-German sentiment in the UK, except for in a mildly jingoistic sense when it comes to penalty shoot-outs at major football tournaments. I think we could learn a lot from the way the Germans operate their public sector/transport/labour markets. And their Reeperbahn.....