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View Poll Results: Your Eurogeddon prediction

Voters
54. You may not vote on this poll
  • Greece will leave the Euro by 2013/14

    22 40.74%
  • The Euro will survive and Greece will stay

    10 18.52%
  • There will be a split into a Northern Euro and Southern Euro

    3 5.56%
  • The Euro will collapse totally

    4 7.41%
  • I want my country to leave the Euro

    3 5.56%
  • I want my country to join the Euro

    0 0%
  • I want my country to leave the Euro and the EU

    6 11.11%
  • I want my country to join the Euro and the EU

    1 1.85%
  • Germany is the problem, it should leave the Euro

    4 7.41%
  • $$$$$ USA! USA! USA! $$$$$

    14 25.93%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. Zencreative is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2012 5:06am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Are you British or do you live here?
    Yes I am, and yes I do. I think that's the assumption that annoys me the most; that it's some how un-British to be pro-Europe. I'm extremely proud to be British but that doesn't preclude me from feeling that we should strive for greater co-operation with our neighbours.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    in an election centring around who was going to lead the country out of recession they and everyone else focussed on the economy.
    But it's not like the EU is a new issue and the 3 previous elections where we were not worrying about a recession, we elected a pro-euro government. With a clear majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    talking to MPs about the post bags full of letters about the EU they get and the people who they meet on the doorstep who want to talk about it. You might find your cosy assumptions slightly shaken.
    I'm not denying that there are eurosceptics, and that they are very vocal, but I don't think they are as widespread as you assume.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Also watch Labour flirting with Euroscepticism tonight when they voted with the Tory's for a cut in the EU budget. They know where the voters are on Europe, even if you don't.
    Labour voted as they did to try and make the shaky government shakier. It's a short term policy that I don't particularly agree with. That said a vote to reassess the EU budget is not the same as wanting to pull out of it wholesale. Don't get me wrong, I don't think the EU is perfect and like all public bodies needs to be very closely monitored, but on the whole I'd say we're better off in than out. In an increasingly globalised world it just make sense. For same reason I don't support Scottish independence - that seems like a step backwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Also, heard any Lib Dems in the news in the last few days defending the EU or saying the budget should increase? I haven't. They've gone into hiding, because they know how hideously out of step with the electorate they are on Europe.
    Fair point. **** them.
  2. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2012 2:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Come on you're not one of those people who believes "economic crisis + shouty man + people in made up uniforms = auschwitz"
    No, but if you change Auschwitz for Italy (1922-1943), Spain (1939-1975), Portugal (1932-1974).... you're getting close to what I believe. Totalitarian regimes are shitty even if they don't gas jews.

    The long haired guy in this clip is one of the 21 Golden Dawn members of greek parliament.


    Eeuroskeptics are going to play the same cards conservatives played against bolchevism in the 1920's?
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/01/2012 6:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zencreative View Post
    Yes I am, and yes I do. I think that's the assumption that annoys me the most; that it's some how un-British to be pro-Europe. I'm extremely proud to be British but
    It is un-British to want to end the nation state of Britain and subsume us into an anti-democratic European super state and unfortunately that is exactly the point of the EU project.

    Luckily, however, you can be pro-Europe without being pro-EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zencreative View Post
    that doesn't preclude me from feeling that we should strive for greater co-operation with our neighbours.
    The EU is the enemy of peace, co-operation and good relations between European neighbours.

    Just look at what it's doing to Europe. The people's of Europe have not felt so much animosity and ill will towards each other as they do now and it is entirely the fault of federalist EU project.

    The answer is not to enforce homogenisation from the top down on an unwilling and increasingly resentful population. It is to give the individual people of Europe back the control over their own lives and the self-respect that engenders.

    If you really want good relations with our European neighbours you'd vote to tear down the EU, today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zencreative View Post
    I'm not denying that there are eurosceptics, and that they are very vocal, but I don't think they are as widespread as you assume.
    Did you see BBCQT tonight? Even the usually deliberately lefty plant audience selected by the BBC was cheering and clapping the arguments for a budget cut and a referendum on membership.

    It is not the Eurosceptics who are in the minority, it is the Europhiles. It's pretty much you, Nick Clegg, Ken Clark and 3 Greens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zencreative View Post
    Labour voted as they did to try and make the shaky government shakier. It's a short term policy that I don't particularly agree with.
    Of course, it's a foolish opportunistic measure. However, the logic that has led them into this strategic blunder is sound - voters don't like the EU.

    The reason it's a blunder, though, is not because the voters want a more conciliatory position towards the EU and greater integrations. It's because now Labour opens itself up to relentless attacks on why it supports austerity and cut's abroad, but not at home.

    Expect that to feature in coming PMQs, political programmes etc... And expect it to resonate with a public struggling with the cost of living.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zencreative View Post
    That said a vote to reassess the EU budget is not the same as wanting to pull out of it wholesale.
    It is, because you can't halt the budget increases. The whole point is that the EU continually and inexorably increases it's budget and it's remit. In so doing continually deepening and extending it's power.

    To question the budget is to question the entire federalist project.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zencreative View Post
    Don't get me wrong, I don't think the EU is perfect and like all public bodies needs to be very closely monitored, but on the whole I'd say we're better off in than out. In an increasingly globalised world it just make sense.
    This is why Singapore is suffering so terribly and is lobbying China to let it join...

    Ahh no wait, back to reality.

    The EU is not a advantage in the global race it's a handicap. We CANNOT I repeat CANNOT negotiate trade deals with any other country whilst in the EU. We must negotiate as part of the wider EU.

    Hence we have no free trade agreement with America. How can that be sensible? In 2012 we can't trade freely with America until the EU agrees it on our behalf.

    That's mental.

    Out of the EU we could unilaterally declare free trade with all the Brics or indeed all of the countries of the world and reap the tremendous benefits. Inside the EU we can't, we're shackled to a corpse. A sclerotic, protectionist, indebted customs union. That was just about relevant in the 1950s, but is now hopelessly out of date.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zencreative View Post
    For same reason I don't support Scottish independence - that seems like a step backwards.
    Scotland would do fine if it was a low tax, low spending state with a very liberal economy. Unfortunately it's a sclerotic high taxing, high spending state, will inherit huge levels of debt and seemingly has no intention of turning things around.

    That's why it will fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zencreative View Post
    Fair point. **** them.
    Glad we agree on one thing at least.
  4. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/01/2012 8:09pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    The answer is not to enforce homogenisation from the top down on an unwilling and increasingly resentful population.
    It is when that population is so divided it seems unable to do anything to stop it. I'm not saying that's the right answer. I'm saying it is at present not effectively opposed.

    It is to give the individual people of Europe back the control over their own lives and the self-respect that engenders.
    I would add "individual peoples of Europe" to that. Some peoples--like some people--have the discipline and work-ethic to exercise proper control over their lives, and should be left to do so without being compelled to carry those with little or no such self-discipline.
  5. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2012 1:32pm

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    Meanwhile...

    Greek anti-austerity protesters hurl coffee at German diplomat as riots sweep across Europe
    The protesters chanted 'Nazis out' and 'This will not pass' as they tried to obstruct municipal officials from attending a conference in the city of Thessaloniki
    British air passengers grounded with dozens of flights cancelled
    Around 800 flights to and from Portugal and Spain cancelled
    Walkouts and violent protests across Spain, Greece, Portugal and Italy
    Police in Madrid fire rubber bullets and Milan descends into violence

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz2CJjGYLcD
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  6. St_Max_Faustus is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2012 4:02pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    The EU is the enemy of peace, co-operation and good relations between European neighbours.

    Just look at what it's doing to Europe. The people's of Europe have not felt so much animosity and ill will towards each other as they do now and it is entirely the fault of federalist EU project.
    This is just fucking retarded. You really have to stop reading The Daily Mail.

    From WWII to the present, Europe has never know such a period of peace.

    Get a fucking grip!
  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2012 6:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by St_Max_Faustus View Post
    This is just fucking retarded. You really have to stop reading The Daily Mail.

    From WWII to the present, Europe has never know such a period of peace.

    Get a fucking grip!
    The EU has only existed since 1993 in which time both the Bosnian and Kosovan war and associated genocides occurred, in regards to which the EU did precisely **** all and NATO was the organisation that stopped the slaughter and the war.

    Then again it takes a special kind of Guardian reading moron to think that an external trade tariff, rules on shapes on bananas and the working time directive is all that is stopping Germans from jumping into their tanks, invading Poland and re-opening the gas chambers.

    It is truly a uniquely warped and deluded mind that believes that were it not for regulations on inter governmental corporation tax the constituent nations of Europe would be tearing each other apart in an orgy of destruction.

    Then again, reality has never been a friend of the Euroloons, they prefer to deal in rumour, scaremongering, deceit and corruption.
  8. St_Max_Faustus is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2012 11:11am


     

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    Errr the Bosanova & Kosova conflicts were to do with the melt down of Yugoslavia. To attempt to blame that on European pollicy is pretty desperate (well actually its really fucking insane).

    Seriously Lolli stop talking out of your Daily Mail fed arse.
  9. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2012 12:09pm


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    Eurogeddon

    Quote Originally Posted by St_Max_Faustus View Post
    Errr the Bosanova & Kosova conflicts were to do with the melt down of Yugoslavia. To attempt to blame that on European pollicy is pretty desperate (well actually its really fucking insane).

    Seriously Lolli stop talking out of your Daily Mail fed arse.
    Blaming European Union for the Yugoslavia is not fair, but it certainly was a test of Europe's collective governing. They did not do well onthe test. Of course the original government of the United States was quickly tested and reworked. The current government system was severely tested during the US civil war. Finally, it took a long time to get a system that did not systematically exclude classes of people. The greatness of the founding fathers I think is based on how many people wanted into the system as opposed to just getting away from it.

    Having said all this a new system will always need adaptations, with the economic crisis the EU will probably need extensive modification; that is not a condemnation of the concept of the EU.
  10. Sarzis is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2012 1:57pm


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    Spaniard here.

    One of the reasons we are not burning government buildings is because of the submerged economy. Lotsa people working without contracts and the like. Some work like that and cash-in subsidies. Many companies' recruiting policies have switched from "lulz we got oprah-rich you can has more money and employee benefits even though you are not a valuable asset to the company" to firing people and then hiring interns to fill positions that were previously held by people with experience so they can cut costs. Other companies that have seen positive numbers still have taken the opportunity to reduce personnel and decrease costs even more. Many companies one way or the other avoid this or that tax. This also happens with the rich.

    Government is right-wing and is privatizing public services. Shockingly enough, the companies that are acquiring the public services contracts are always owned by someone belonging to the party, or with relations to someone of the party.

    Most politicians have more asistants than socks (president has some 200 and something), many of them will not have any kind of real education (university degrees, or even HIGHSCHOOL degrees, or real working experience, as they just joined the party when they were in their 20s and have stayed there since then receiving money to nod to everything their bosses say).

    The biggest unions are government-funded. Corruption is the norm: if your cousin is one of the big boys at the union, maybe you can get paid 5k to give a course on safety regarding installation of solar panels for the lulz (1 week duration, 3 hours per day); courses that are supposed to improve and recycle the worker's abilities and add experience on the curriculum, but ends up being just a waste of time and money.

    Oh, and the government doesnt care about the people demonstrating, so they'll keep playing their tune until someone breaks the fucking instrument.

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