Eurogeddon

[ashkelon]

It would also put a lot of pressure on our govt. to give us a referendum on leaving.

Oh and by all means, leave voluntarily.
I just never got why the British are in it, block all measures that could lead to more democracy and then criticize the E.U. for lacking democracy.
Now don't get me wrong, a lot of things about the E.U. are messed up, France's hypocritical stance for example, but the British people and their politicians obviously don't believe in the idea behind it - however vague it is.
A trade union could be set-up without a problem.

[ashkelon]

They'll be poor either way, unless they make some very major and very unpopular structural, supply side reforms.

Yes, but they're would be some perspective, I just don't see how they'll ever get back with how it's being handled now. The technicalities are a bit unclear, but the monetary policy is just not being adapted to their needs.

We're more than willing to leave on our own accord. Why would you like us out?

The stalemate between the UK blocking a clear union, France relentlessly pursuing its national interests and Germany using the Euro as if it were the DM is fucking with everything. It's an old fashioned power struggle and let's say the UK don't have the best of intentions.

Any future, true E.U. would need to be built on democratic, economic and social principles the U.K. just doesn't share with the others. All the different agreements (EU, Schengen, Euro, Fiscal Compact) should be rewritten into two things:
- the EU, with Euro, common fiscal policy etc (basically the eurozone)
- a free trade zone + some industrial standards (UK, Greece and the "new" members)

[judoka_uk]

Oh and by all means, leave voluntarily.
I just never got why the British are in it,

We don't know why we're in it either. As one of my acquaintances said recently "There are 5 people left in Britain who want to be in the EU: David Cameron, Nick Clegg and 3 greens".



Please write to your MP or representative urging him to get us kicked out. We'd love to be kicked out.

block all measures that could lead to more democracy and then criticize the E.U. for lacking democracy.

Exactly which 'pro-democracy' EU measures have we blocked? The EU doesn't believe in democracy, just ask the Irish.

A trade union could be set-up without a problem.

This is what I keep telling British Europhiles.

[judoka_uk]

Yes, but they're would be some perspective, I just don't see how they'll ever get back with how it's being handled now. The technicalities are a bit unclear, but the monetary policy is just not being adapted to their needs.

Monetary policy that incorporates 17 vastly different countries can never be adapted to suit one countries needs. That's why the EU needs FU, as you argue.

The stalemate between the UK blocking a clear union, France relentlessly pursuing its national interests and Germany using the Euro as if it were the DM is fucking with everything. It's an old fashioned power struggle and let's say the UK don't have the best of intentions.

We didn't block anything. Cameron vetoed and then the EU changed the rules so that the 17 could do it anyway.

Any future, true E.U. would need to be built on democratic, economic and social principles the U.K. just doesn't share with the others.

This is true, we believe in democracy, free markets and a society where people can choose how and by whom they're governed. This is fundamentally incompatible with the EU now, let alone where the Eurocrats want it to go.

[ashkelon]

Exactly which 'pro-democracy' EU measures have we blocked? The EU doesn't believe in democracy, just ask the Irish.

IIRC and this is purely based on my impressions:
- a more political commission controlled by the EP
- less power for the Council

In general the UK has contributed to fragmentation which has led to blurring of the role of the institutions.

Also the EU doesn't believe in anything, the nations in the Council decide. The politicians just offload their own responsibility when it suits them.

[ashkelon]

We didn't block anything. Cameron vetoed and then the EU changed the rules so that the 17 could do it anyway.

I was not referring to the fiscal compact but to the EU in general, and the perceived role of the U.K. historically.

This is true, we believe in democracy, free markets and a society where people can choose how and by whom they're governed. This is fundamentally incompatible with the EU now, let alone where the Eurocrats want it to go.

Many Europeans feel they share a culture and social stances, they just wonder how the current clusterfuck is supposed to represent that. Actually it is rather fitting come to think of it.

[judoka_uk]

IIRC and this is purely based on my impressions:
- a more political commission controlled by the EP
- less power for the Council

In general the UK has contributed to fragmentation which has led to blurring of the role of the institutions.

Hold on. You think centralising decision making to a supranational governing body rather than keeping it decentralised to local areas within a national governing body is less democratic?

Also the EU doesn't believe in anything, the nations in the Council decide. The politicians just offload their own responsibility when it suits them.

The EU believes in two things and two things only; silencing dissent and enhancing its own power.

I was not referring to the fiscal compact but to the EU in general, and the perceived role of the U.K. historically.

The reality is that faceless Eurocrats who don't care about your or me have consistently sought to eradicate nation states and emasculate European voters. Have encountered occasional and paper thing resistance from all British leaders apart from Thatcher.

We've paid lipservice to liberty and democracy, but at each turn have acquiesced to dictatorial illiberal EU project.

Many Europeans feel they share a culture and social stances, they just wonder how the current clusterfuck is supposed to represent that. Actually it is rather fitting come to think of it.

Really? How much culture and social stance do the Germans feel they share with the Greeks?

Forcing the uniformity of the EU project onto the constituent peoples of the EU has led 18% of the French people voting for the far right and Greeks giving 21 seats to Neo-Nazis.

The EU project is divisive, anti-democratic and illiberal.

Its making Europeans more intolerant and more nationalistic.

In short its undermining its sole purpose - eradicating nationalism.

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

I miss the BeNeLux (Belgium-The Netherlands-Luxembourg).
Maybe we should go back to that concept and give it a realistic go this time. It was a better and workable idea, it's just a shame that we fucked up by letting first Germany and France into our circle and later the United Kingdom.
Unfortunally we can't go back to the socio-political-economical climate of 1952 (the aftermath of WWII), which was perfect to merge 3 countries into 1.

We should have known better because European history is one giant statement that neither Germany, France or the United Kingdom will ever work together on such a level that any federation would work.

"Europe" was still workable onto an extend when the 12 original members made up the E.U. (even in 1986, we knew that Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal would be the economical weaker member states), but 27 countries in such a short time is too much too fast.

[judoka_uk]

I miss the BeNeLux (Belgium-The Netherlands-Luxembourg).
Maybe we should go back to that concept and give it a realistic go this time. It was a better and workable idea, it's just a shame that we fucked up by letting first Germany and France into our circle and later the United Kingdom.

That might work if you all agree to a fiscal union.

Otherwise you're doomed to the same madness that is political union without fiscal union.

The reality is that the constituent peoples of Europe do not want to cede sovereignty to supranational organisations. They want to influence national govt. at a national level. The EU is a mirage exploiting the hopes and dreams of socialist pan-Europeans.

It is anti-democratic, anti-economic recovery and anti-free speech.

Repudiate and reject it at every opportunity you have.

[dflanmod]

Greece will pull out of the euro but will fail to address any of the underlying issues with their fiscal policies.

I think eventually a few other countries over there will follow in their footsteps.

On this side of the pond we will continue to print money until it is worthless in our final attempt to crash the world ecconomy by completely destroying the dollar.

Thus begins the coming apocolypse.