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View Poll Results: Your Eurogeddon prediction

Voters
54. You may not vote on this poll
  • Greece will leave the Euro by 2013/14

    22 40.74%
  • The Euro will survive and Greece will stay

    10 18.52%
  • There will be a split into a Northern Euro and Southern Euro

    3 5.56%
  • The Euro will collapse totally

    4 7.41%
  • I want my country to leave the Euro

    3 5.56%
  • I want my country to join the Euro

    0 0%
  • I want my country to leave the Euro and the EU

    6 11.11%
  • I want my country to join the Euro and the EU

    1 1.85%
  • Germany is the problem, it should leave the Euro

    4 7.41%
  • $$$$$ USA! USA! USA! $$$$$

    14 25.93%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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  1. nils is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 5:59am


     Style: FormerShotokan,Kickboxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    Dear mister selfproclaimed fact-raper, can you explain this 'Creeping process' to me?
    Well, you could look at post-revolutionary France for a historic example, or the late republic of rome.

    On the other hand, todays financial, political and economical situation is not really comparable to any incident of past, so could we please move the discussion of history and which country did the worst atrocities in the last century (hint: germany wins) to another thread?

    More present-day examples of such creeping processes to totalitarianism are Belarus and Russia.

    Secondly, the EU already has some non-democratic aspects - e.g. the European Stability Mechanism, which by now has the power to spend limitless amounts (as of next week) of money to virtually every state, institution or even private persons, without the possibility for elected parliaments to inquire about and no possibility for any judicative body to intervene.

    Also, the hardliners in germany now openly discuss, if it were a good idea to make the financial-commisioner the authoring officer over the states´ financial affairs, again without any checks and balances.

    Thirdly, you could just look at the everyday-impact of the EU on its citizens. From some smaller stupidities like the (failed) enforcement of E10-Gasoline and cases of corruption like the banning of tungsten-lightbulbs to the redesign of agrary-subvsidies in favor ofmiddle europe, to the fact that the massive redistribution of wealth to the upper 4-5% in the last two decades was only made possible by the policies of the EU, you can see that the EU, after a good start, did not govern in favor of most its inhabitants. . Add to that the ongoing attempts to cut down civil rights to the lowest common denominator.

    That doesn´t neccessarily mean totalitarianism, but the EU certainly put government and people even further apart, making it much harder for the public to control the policies affecting their lifes.
  2. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 6:01am


     Style: Striking, grappling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't move the goalposts, you said:
    As for journalists, British ones have a more balanced perspective than the lickspittles you read on a daily basis.
    So do they have a balanced perspective or not?

    I'm actually quite convinced there might be a majority for the UK leaving and this brings me back to the point I made a couple of pages back: it's YOUR government that's not listening then, not the dreaded faceless eurocrats but your shining beacon of democracy.
  3. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 9:18am


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    Quote Originally Posted by nils View Post
    Well, you could look at post-revolutionary France for a historic example, or the late republic of rome.
    @ Nils

    You cannot call the Roman Republic totalitarian, because the amount of control exerted on the common people in their daily lives is quite hard to compare to the amount of control for the average Joe in the Soviet Union (pun intended). This amount of control became only possible due to the advent of the telephone, telegraph, and trains, to name a few.

    I cannot say whether Belarussia ever evolved slowly into an totalitarian regime, as it sprang out from a previous one (SU) and people wanted a 'firm' leader. Russia might prove to be a good example that an authoritarian regime (which it certainly is in my opinion) is evolving to a totalitarian regime in a slow way. However, the EU cannot be called a totalitarian state right now, and it is taking a hell of a lot of time to turn into one, Putin has been making much more 'progress' in that time, in much less time.



    Secondly, the EU already has some non-democratic aspects - e.g. the European Stability Mechanism, which by now has the power to spend limitless amounts (as of next week) of money to virtually every state, institution or even private persons, without the possibility for elected parliaments to inquire about and no possibility for any judicative body to intervene.
    Well, the Bundesverfassungsgericht decided not to interfere, right? And the parties in the government voted for it, that the German people elected themselves. They have party programs with their plans for the EU, haven't they?


    Thirdly, you could just look at the everyday-impact of the EU on its citizens. From some smaller stupidities like the (failed) enforcement of E10-Gasoline and cases of corruption like the banning of tungsten-lightbulbs to the redesign of agrary-subvsidies in favor ofmiddle europe, to the fact that the massive redistribution of wealth to the upper 4-5% in the last two decades was only made possible by the policies of the EU, you can see that the EU, after a good start, did not govern in favor of most its inhabitants. . Add to that the ongoing attempts to cut down civil rights to the lowest common denominator.
    Let's not jump to conclusions shall we?

    The gap between the rich and the poor grew also because of the ever loosening regulations and control of the financial markets by the governments. The British were after the Americans among the first in Europe, and the Germans followed suit (oh gosh, we can't have the British get everything, we want a nice part for Frankfurt too! (yeah, I also read the Süddeutsche Zeitung once in a while).

    Secondly, the Schengen treaty made trade and transport within the EU easier, and the improvement of infrastructure arranged by the EU also helped economic growth. Of course the EU makes very costly mistakes, but what government didn't?

    In Amsterdam for example, some idiots thought it a good idea to build a metro line underneath the historical centre. And the soil there is predominantly bog. Hundreds of millions over budget and months over schedule later (oh and damaging houses that sagged) and it's still not finished.

    Why can't I vote for members of the European Committee? Why can't I vote for (e.g.) the Greens or the Italian Communists, or the Hungarian Anti-Gypsy in the European Parliament? Right now, it's a monstrum
    - it isn't completely democratic
    - it isn't an international body comprising sovereign states (with democratically elected governments).
  4. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 9:21am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Found this interesting piece of info
    A survey in 2012, conducted by TNS Opinion and Social on behalf of the European Commission, showed that, for the European Union overall, those who think that their country's interests are looked after well in the EU are now in a minority (42%).[12] Those with a positive image of the EU are down from a high of 52% in 2007 to a low of 31% in May 2012 (unchanged since November 2011); this compares with 28% with a negative image of the EU, and 39% with a neutral image (up from a low of 14% in 2007)
    As I read it, the EU might question itself whether they are walking the right path, pumping endless amounts of money into lost causes.
  5. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 11:07am

    Join us... or die
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    So do they have a balanced perspective or not?
    Britain's Top 12 Dailies by circulation:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/tabl...nal-newspapers

    Eurosceptic:
    Daily telegraph
    Daily Mail
    The Sun
    The Daily Mirror
    Daily Star
    Daily Express
    The Times

    Europhile:
    Guardian/Observer
    FT
    Independent/ I

    The majority of papers and those with the biggest circulations adopt a Eurosceptic position, because that's where the majority of the public are and they want to sell papers.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    I'm actually quite convinced there might be a majority for the UK leaving and this brings me back to the point I made a couple of pages back: it's YOUR government that's not listening then, not the dreaded faceless eurocrats but your shining beacon of democracy.
    The cowardice and spinelessness of our political class doesn't really have any relevance on the undemocratic nature of the EU.

    The EU is and will remain not just un-democratic, but anti-democratic whether we're in it or not.

    Without us in it, it will probably get worse, but that will be your problem not ours.
  6. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 11:19am


     Style: 空手/HNIR

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you read a newspaper, you are not necessarily agreeing what's in it, but I see your point.

    are there any more recent polls than this one?
    In Britain, those who view the UK's membership of the EU negatively and those who view it as neither positive nor negative each constitute 32% of the population. Those who view EU membership positively make up 28%.[1]
  7. nils is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 12:24pm


     Style: FormerShotokan,Kickboxing

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    @ Nils
    Well, the Bundesverfassungsgericht decided not to interfere, right?
    Well, the Bundesverfassungsgericht declined to a paper-tiger in the last few years. Just a month ago they allowed the engagement of the Bundeswehr in germany for riot-control-situations (under the very fuzzy condition of "catastrophic situations"), although the separation of army and police was one of the main lessons learned from nazi-germany and is quite clearly demanded in the constitution; also their demands are often ignored in the way that a refuted law gets passed again under a different name and some cosmetic changes, only to be refuted again (but a year or so later). This happened thrice with the social welfare calculations by now, twice with the reform of the federal election-process.

    There seems to be a growing disregard for the BverfG by many members of the political elite.

    Another problem is that each and every member of both senates of the Bundesverfassungsgericht are de facto named by the two largest parties (christian conservatives and social-democrats).

    Nonetheless, they did criticize the ESM and they demanded some changes, but in a way which is open to much interpretation and most possibly without any real consequences.

    And the parties in the government voted for it, that the German people elected themselves.
    Still, not even an elected government can pass laws which go against the constitution, nor can it change the relevant part of it.
    Last edited by nils; 10/19/2012 12:30pm at .
  8. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 12:31pm


     Style: Striking, grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Britain's Top 12 Dailies by circulation:

    Eurosceptic:
    Daily telegraph
    Daily Mail
    The Sun
    The Daily Mirror
    Daily Star
    Daily Express
    The pinnacle of journalism.
  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 3:05pm

    Join us... or die
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    If you read a newspaper, you are not necessarily agreeing what's in it, but I see your point.
    You could make that argument for many of the red tops. Where buying tends to be more habitual. However, the likes of the Mail, Telegraph, Express etc... tend to be bought due to political considerations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    are there any more recent polls than this one?
    Err, yes that's from 2009. The one I posted is from May of 2012

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_upload...8-200512v2.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    The pinnacle of journalism.
    Lol, you think the Telegraph and the Times are gutter press?

    Either way the people vote with their wallets and if you combine the circulations of the Guardian, the FT and the Independent they still sell 17,890 fewer papers a month than the Telegraph does.

    Tell us, how do the Belgian press compare?
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 10/19/2012 3:08pm at .
  10. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 4:19pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't tend to consider press quality by sales, sorry but that's just the mainland European snob I am. I didn't quote you on the Times btw, haven't read the Telegraph more than a couple of times, but the others are just vile.

    Flemish newspapers are less opinionated than British, one of the reasons I like to read British press. The main ones, de Standaard en De Morgen - are excellent quality and cover the EU in depth and critically, which is easy because of the proximity of the institutions.
    The other side of the country is much under the influence of France, which I find not so interesting.
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