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View Poll Results: Your Eurogeddon prediction

Voters
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  • Greece will leave the Euro by 2013/14

    22 40.74%
  • The Euro will survive and Greece will stay

    10 18.52%
  • There will be a split into a Northern Euro and Southern Euro

    3 5.56%
  • The Euro will collapse totally

    4 7.41%
  • I want my country to leave the Euro

    3 5.56%
  • I want my country to join the Euro

    0 0%
  • I want my country to leave the Euro and the EU

    6 11.11%
  • I want my country to join the Euro and the EU

    1 1.85%
  • Germany is the problem, it should leave the Euro

    4 7.41%
  • $$$$$ USA! USA! USA! $$$$$

    14 25.93%
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  1. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2012 12:29pm


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    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Admittedly, the British had a fascist party headed by Mosely, hadn't it? Anyway, that could be said of the majority of European nations prior to the war. It would be a bridge too far, har har, that the British were nazis. Though they had a thing with concentration camps during the Boer War (hilarious that it was left out at the National Army Museum, that little detail) . Those concentration camps were nothing to the death camps of the Nazis, so the British are ok.



    I have been searching for the exact construct that is intended to monitor government spending in the Eurozone, could only find that they intend to adjust the treaties and imposing fines for countries not keeping to the 3% norm. (how a state with a deficit could pay a fine is a bit strange to me, but hey, it's the EU, what do you expect).
  2. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/17/2012 1:09pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So you're saying EU democracy would be enhanced by having a hellenistic slave class?
    No, it means what it says: even in classical athens, only a part of the 'people' could vote. I meant to show that the classical demos (that you state is necessary for a democracy) was actually quite limited. I did never write, nor intend, that I think slavery and women is a good thing. Nor is it fair that a part of the hard working, taxpaying members of society (metics) should be denied full citizenship and the right to vote, on the grounds that their ancestors were immigrants.


    You purposefully ignore what I meant to say: that it is not unknown for multiple peoples to live in a democracy hence for example the 'e pluribus unum' reference



    My, my, that does sound awfully apposite! Do you by any chance work for the Bundesbank?
    irrelevant




    Ahh the American fallacy, beloved of the Europhile. Pray tell how many hundreds of years, civil wars and armed interracial conflicts did it take for the US to emerge in it's current form?
    in that quote the US is not even mentioned! Ethnogenesis does exist, takes place, and no, it isn't always a party or easy and fast processs. I was writing about France and Spain, oh and had the Hungarians in mind, even though I did not mention them.


    Hmm yes quite, please stop carping on about the US then, ok? Unless you want to assassinate a Greek Martin Luther King?
    irrelevant


    I know one fact that you refuse to acknowledge. NO means NO.

    Until you acknowledge that when the people vote NO they mean NO.

    You're an unreconstructed anti-democrat and hater of democracy and you have no place lecturing others on the democratic process.
    Considering what party I am a member of, this quote is downright hilarious.

    I was just proving that the Dutch situation was not as black and white as you are trying to portray it.


    We'll slow clap for you guys. You were the first to pile onto the good ship totalitarianism.
    that's you're opinion of totalitarianism? As a matter of fact, I have a very keen interest in totalitarian interest even before 1984. After finishing the Kershaw bibliography of Hitler, I went on with 'At the red czar's court', Saddam's physician, two biographies of refugees from North Korea (and this is by no means an exhaustive list). Knowing all that, I can't see the totalitarian character of the EU;
    - no secret police
    - no camps
    - no executions
    - no disregard for the rule of law (but I expect you to see this differently); fact: there is a Court of Justice for the European Union, and even (though not connected to the EU) a European Court of Human Rights.

    I could name a few other facts, but let's not over do it.

    Actually, a lot of directives leave space for member states to interpret as they see fit.

    For example: the guide line that cheese made of raw milk has to be checked for pollution and contaminations (virus and bacteria): how often is a matter of national policy. The French do it once a year I believe, the Dutch every month (and the enterprise has to pay for it).

    Of course there is some bullshit regulations, like the Danish fishing trawlers that had to have condoms on board as part of 'safe working environment' regulation, but that **** happens with every bureaucracy.



    I have 4 letters for you N.A.T and O.
    I haven't said it was THE way to keep the russians out, that is your interpretation. I said 'A' function. Through commercial intertwining and promoting economical growth, the chances of communism in the form of a big 5th column would be prevented.
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/18/2012 4:46pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Your views of nationality are simplistic, racist and backward.
    Yes, I'm the racist for wanting Britain to leave Europe behind and re-orientate our econonmy to the growing regions of the world.

    I'm the racist for objecting to the fact that my country isn't free to enter into free trade agreements with brown people, because of the EU customs union.

    I'm the racist who when arguing that the growth and economic future of the next 50-100 years is outside of Europe was mocked by you non-racists, who assert that white Europe will remain dominant eternal.

    I'm the racist for wanting individual nations to be in control of their own destinies. Whereas you non-racists want to control and subjugate them to your own central control, because unless you rule over them they might go to war with each other. The savages.

    You're right, I'm so totally the racist one here.

    I expect your nobel peace prize is in the post. Although it may have got delayed by a fire in the Athens sorting office. ...

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    So what now, the British Empire is the virgin bringer of democracy in the world?
    The world's largest democracy: India. Former British colony.
    Africa's largest democracy: Nigeria. Former British colony.

    The standard form of nation state democracy: Parliamentary. Modelled on the British parliament.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    **** that you colonial mongrel.
    Remind me, what was the punishment for native Africans not collecting enough rubber under Belgian rule of the Congo?

    Ahh yes, I remember.



    Not nice being reminded of the sordid bits of your own history is it.

    Feel free to carry on acting as if we're the only ones to have had an empire and that we're uniquely evil, though...


    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    If you'd put membership of the EU to a vote here, it'd be accepted by +90%, even the Flemish nationalists are extremely pro-europe.
    So what you're saying is that the Flemish nationalists object to being in a political union with the Walloons, but want to be in a political union with the Dutch, Germans, French, Spanish, Italians, Greeks etc...

    And this somehow means I'm the one with the silly argument not them?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    I've held from the beginning that the current union is flawed, it is, but we do share a culture and economy.

    The problem is, we only partly share this culture with the brits, but a lot of economy.

    Look you don't live it, I get it, but for me professionally, socially and geographically the EU is for all intents and purposes a federation. It also reduces red tape, I though you brit folks were much into that.
    The EU reduces red tape?

    Haha, are you mad?

    Just this year and just relating to the internet the EU has brought in a cookie law that is crippling internet based businesses and needlessly confusing consumers without any additional privacy benefits.

    Tell me how many pieces of legislation has the EU repealed this year? How many pieces of legislation has it enacted?

    Go on, tell me. Then with a straight face tell me again the EU reduces red tape.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    You can post your stupid pictures
    Yeh, stupid, stupid Greeks, eh.



    Everyone knows the solution to a fire crisis is more petrol, anway you were saying...

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    in continental europe people want their nations to unite even in these hard times.
    Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Oh and you haven't fact raped anyone. Without the Euro, Belgium would've been obliterated by speculators on currency for two reason: the state debt would be higher as we had to lower it for the Maastricht norms, secondly smaller nations don't have the leverage to prop up their funds and are easily speculated against e.g. Sweden.
    Oooh those big horrible speculators. Do they have big noses and curly hair? Do they work for banks with suspicious names such as 'Goldman' and 'Rothschild'?

    Here's an alternative perspective, instead of blaming others for your own predicament, why not take a good hard look in the mirror and recognise who is really to blame.

    Why not reduce the amount your government spends, thus avoiding the possibility of going bankrupt due to debt?

    Sweden speculated against you say? To small to defend itself you say? Is that the same Sweden, which free of the Euro noose enjoys a GDP of $538bn whilst Belgium has only $511.5bn?

    The same Sweden whose finance minister recently advocated Greece's withdrawal from the Euro in order for them to de-couple, default and de-value?

    Sounds awfully like feeding into the hands of the those dreadful hooked nose speculators to me, your thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    None of you arguments are fundamentally applicable to the EU, the only one that holds sway is the relative lack of democracy of which the British two faced attitude is one of the main causes.
    Yes, our reluctance to be ruled by Brussels is totally to blame for the lack of democracy in Brussels. Because only by aggregating as much power to a single, unelected body as possible can democracy truly flourish....

    Jesus titty fucking christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Look you're a wannabe tea party member with an inferiority complex, that's quite alright. Also a bit too easy calling us out on a predominantly Anglo-saxon forum with people who mostly only speak English, I wonder which journalists they are exposed to.
    Well given how brainwashed you Europhiles are, the only place that you can have a balanced discussion on the EU is on an Anglo-phone forum. Where the Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who all enjoy freedom of speech and parliamentary democracy look on totally baffled by the rejection of both freedom of speech and parliamentary democracy by the EU and European countries.

    Those countries being free to trade with the growing parts of the world are totally non-plussed by the idea that the only route to prosperity is by shackling yourself to a poverty stricken customs union.

    As for journalists, British ones have a more balanced perspective than the lickspittles you read on a daily basis. How many Belgian journalists in national titles write about national sovereignty and the need for withdrawal?

    Hmm, yes quite, debate is denied, contrary opinion silenced, weil Ordnung muss sein - Ein Volk, Ein Euro, Ein van Rompuy.
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 10/18/2012 4:50pm at .
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/18/2012 5:49pm

    Join us... or die
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    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    No, it means what it says: even in classical athens, only a part of the 'people' could vote. I meant to show that the classical demos (that you state is necessary for a democracy) was actually quite limited.
    Never said a state, I said a demos was required. A conceptualisation amongst a group of people that they share a common identity. Usually found in language, art, culture, myth and geography.

    There is no common European language, ironically the thing that comes closest is English. Nor art, nor culture and most certainly not geography. No one can agree on where Europe ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    irrelevant
    So you do work for them? It's ok, I visited Axel Webber's house once, nice guy, married to an English woman.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    in that quote the US is not even mentioned! Ethnogenesis does exist, takes place, and no, it isn't always a party or easy and fast processs. I was writing about France and Spain, oh and had the Hungarians in mind, even though I did not mention them.
    The US got to where it is now over a period of 300 years, during which they experience much hardship, strife, a civil war, a violent oppression a minority and that's despite an incredibly robust constitution that elevates individual liberty to the uttermost and enshrines the rights of localised regions to self-determination.

    The EU has a constitution that subjugates individual liberty to the whims of the state, that rejects the self-determination of local regions seeks to gather all power and rights centrally to a technocratic elite.

    If the pro-freedom US suffered such extreme strife to get to where it is today. Then it's naive to expert the anti-freedom anti-democracy EU to sail serenely into some imaginary centralised, bureaucratic sunlight upland.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    that's you're opinion of totalitarianism? As a matter of fact, I have a very keen interest in totalitarian interest even before 1984. After finishing the Kershaw bibliography of Hitler, I went on with 'At the red czar's court', Saddam's physician, two biographies of refugees from North Korea (and this is by no means an exhaustive list). Knowing all that, I can't see the totalitarian character of the EU;
    - no secret police
    - no camps
    - no executions
    - no disregard for the rule of law (but I expect you to see this differently); fact: there is a Court of Justice for the European Union, and even (though not connected to the EU) a European Court of Human Rights.
    Totalitarianism arrives not with a bang, but with a whimper.

    If you had learned anything from history you would know this.

    That slowly, but steadily the totalitarians piggy back weak and unaccountable democratic institutions to get into power. Then once there begin centralising power to themselves, de-constructing the few elements of accountability in the system and silencing dissent in the name of order and or progress.

    For your lessons in how the EU is conducting its totalitarian progress look not to Hitler, but to Stalin and the Soviet control over Eastern Europe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moenstah View Post
    I haven't said it was THE way to keep the russians out, that is your interpretation. I said 'A' function. Through commercial intertwining and promoting economical growth, the chances of communism in the form of a big 5th column would be prevented.
    Any reading of history that sees the stationing of NATO troops in Europe and the Marshall plan as less important to peace in Europe than a bureaucratic customs union that only came into existence in 1993 is stark raving crackers.

    Either way, the argument that the only thing stopping the Germans from loading up the Panzers and re-establishing the death camps is the EU. Is not only fucking mental, but also revealing of a deeply patronising and xenophobic attitude to your fellow Europeans.
  5. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/18/2012 7:14pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Psst...J Uk!

    Although you correctly point out that the U.S.'s integration into a continent spanning megapower was not without hiccups (The Whiskey Rebellion and the War Between the States come springing to mind) and you mentioned slavery, you'll never be able to prove you're not British Goebbels if you don't bring up that we Amerikkkans grabbed all our land by booting the original inhabitants off it with Gatling guns and smallpox.

    Honestly, the European guys who came closest to following our playbook in the game of Unity for Everyone tended to have mustaches and a fondness for lots of guys in uniform marching in formation.
  6. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 1:59am


     Style: Striking, grappling

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Yes, I'm the racist for wanting Britain to leave Europe behind and re-orientate our economy to the growing regions of the world.
    No, for all the other drivel you spew. But I take back the racist and I'll keep at simplistic and backward. Happy?
    Oh and your view of history is extremely euro-centric, which is a good joke by itself.
    And keep your strawmen, if you continue to put fwd opnions which aren't mine, we can't discuss, granted that's not the point of this thread, the point is a good eurobash.

    The world's largest democracy: India. Former British colony.
    Africa's largest democracy: Nigeria. Former British colony.

    The standard form of nation state democracy: Parliamentary. Modelled on the British parliament.
    Those are nice things. Never said Britain didn't contribute to world history. There's also the Opium Wars, Dresden, South Africa, (Northern) Ireland.

    Remind me, what was the punishment for native Africans not collecting enough rubber under Belgian rule of the Congo?
    Technically that wasn't under Belgian rule but a private estate of the Belgian monarch.
    Doesn't matter though, it's a shameful thing, did I ever say anything to tout Belgium? I did not. Your arguments are pitiful.

    Feel free to carry on acting as if we're the only ones to have had an empire and that we're uniquely evil, though...
    Booooring - all and I mean all the Western states are responsible for some of the worst atrocities in human history, no need to be ashamed of where you come from but **** me if doesn't make you look like an idiot for being a nationalist

    So what you're saying is that the Flemish nationalists object to being in a political union with the Walloons, but want to be in a political union with the Dutch, Germans, French, Spanish, Italians, Greeks etc...

    And this somehow means I'm the one with the silly argument not them?
    I'm not a nationalist, the irony isn't lost on me, but there you go, nationalists are idiots more often than not.

    Sweden speculated against you say? To small to defend itself you say? Is that the same Sweden, which free of the Euro noose enjoys a GDP of $538bn whilst Belgium has only $511.5bn?
    You should read up on Swedish history before you start thinking you "factrape" people.

    Yes, our reluctance to be ruled by Brussels is totally to blame for the lack of democracy in Brussels. Because only by aggregating as much power to a single, unelected body as possible can democracy truly flourish....
    Which part of making it more accountable and democratic do you not understand?
    When you hold elections it becomes fucking elected.
    "Jesus titty fucking christ." ditto

    Well given how brainwashed you Europhiles are, the only place that you can have a balanced discussion on the EU is on an Anglo-phone forum. Where the Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who all enjoy freedom of speech and parliamentary democracy look on totally baffled by the rejection of both freedom of speech and parliamentary democracy by the EU and European countries.
    Funny that, I read English, American, French, Dutch, German, Belgian sources and somehow you're the only one I can't have a sensible discussion with.

    As for journalists, British ones have a more balanced perspective than the lickspittles you read on a daily basis. How many Belgian journalists in national titles write about national sovereignty and the need for withdrawal?
    There are no national titles, there's Flemish and French speaking ones. They have other fish to fry at the moment, but they are very critical, not necessarily if the union itself, but for the role countries play within it, starring the French, British and German as the bad, the bad and the ugly.

    In any event, the only British ones I care about are The Economist and the FT and the're not half as anti-european as you are, it seems you are the one on the fringe.
  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 5:06am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The EU showing it's true colours, yet again.

    A poster currently on display in the European Parliament.


    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...t-this-poster/

    Did you spot the odd one out?
  8. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 5:11am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Dear mister selfproclaimed fact-raper, can you explain this 'Creeping process' to me?
    I mean, according to three textbook examples of totalitarian regimes, I cannot understand why there is no such regime in the EU. They are around since 1993 already! What is taking them so long? They even voted against ACTA!

    Textbook example I
    fact 1933 - Enabling Act, of which the articles I and II abolished democracy and the Rule of Law (because laws could go against the Constitution)
    fact 1933 - Gestapo founded
    fact 1933 Concentration Camps (first was Dachau)
    fact 1933 - dissolution of the Labour Unions, forced into the DAF (Deutsche ArbeiterFront)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung#Specific_measures] source[/url]

    Example II - The Bolshevic Revolution of 1917

    And Lenin? Well, one of the first measures he took was the formation of the Cheka in 1917 (fact)and as a matter of further education:
    Vladimir Lenin and Leon Trotsky argued that unless internal opposition to the government was removed the White Army would win the Civil War. The Constituent Assembly was closed down and political parties such as the Cadets, Mensheviks and the Socialist Revolutionaries were banned. Strict censorship was also introduced with all anti-Bolshevik newspapers being closed down.
    source
    After which a nice Red Terror ensued. Oh and War Communism too, during the ensuing Civil War, violating the basic principle of the right of property)

    Example III - Mao then?
    Well, Mao violated property rights of land owners, had them and business owners purged, (some landlords were torn to pieces by peasant mobs) forced a Five Year Plan on the country, and political dissidents were widely persecuted in the period of 1949 to 1952 already.

    fact: 32 MEPs of a total of 754 are euroskeptics, so who's part of the fringe?
    source

    I think it is clear who is in dire need of some further education in history
  9. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 5:12am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    The EU showing it's true colours, yet again.

    A poster currently on display in the European Parliament.


    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...t-this-poster/

    Did you spot the odd one out?
    Hahahahaha, yeah, that one is hilarious!
  10. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/19/2012 5:16am

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    In any event, the only British ones I care about are The Economist and the FT and the're not half as anti-european as you are, it seems you are the one on the fringe.
    Yes, on the fringe with the majority of the British population

    78% want a referendum on our membership. In which 51% would vote to leave only 28% would vote to stay in.

    SOURCE Page 7:
    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_upload...8-200512v2.pdf

    Next time check your facts on what people actually think not what technocratic corporatist publications like the FT and the Economist want people to think.

    We Brits want to leave the EU and my views on the EU are 100% mainstream in the UK.
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