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View Poll Results: Your Eurogeddon prediction

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  • Greece will leave the Euro by 2013/14

    22 40.74%
  • The Euro will survive and Greece will stay

    10 18.52%
  • There will be a split into a Northern Euro and Southern Euro

    3 5.56%
  • The Euro will collapse totally

    4 7.41%
  • I want my country to leave the Euro

    3 5.56%
  • I want my country to join the Euro

    0 0%
  • I want my country to leave the Euro and the EU

    6 11.11%
  • I want my country to join the Euro and the EU

    1 1.85%
  • Germany is the problem, it should leave the Euro

    4 7.41%
  • $$$$$ USA! USA! USA! $$$$$

    14 25.93%
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  1. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 12:23pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    To have a demo cracy, you need a demos. There is no European demos, only Greeks, Germans, Italians and Dutch.
    There is, the British, euh English just aren't part of it.
    It's not a about some romantic idea of nation state but about a complex identity, something which exists in both the UK and the US, does it not?

    also, your growth numbers don't mean ****, comparing the US or Japan to the EU makes sense, but economic growth is always bigger in developing countries that are errr developing.

    So the reason that the EU isn't democractic or accountable now, is because we haven't surrendered enough powers to it? And as soon as we surrender the right amount of powers to it, it will magically become democratic and accountable?
    Yes magically as in straight elections and no backdoor deals between heads of state, you know, a democracy.
  2. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 2:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    If anyone can clear this up for me, much obliged, but didn't Britain pretty much own the oceans during WW2, with most of the U-Boat kills being against American shipping during a period when we told the Brits we were quite sure we could handle naval affairs without your advice or assistance, MUM!
    If not all the oceans certainly we were the dominant naval power in the North Atlantic. I imagine that US naval power was dominant in the pacific, if not at the start of the war certainly by the end of it.

    1939-40 were difficult years for the Royal Navy due to overstretch with having to fight in Norwegian waters and conduct Dunkirk.

    Although the thing usually cited as critical in the North Atlantic convoy war is the capture of U110, which was re-imagined in Hollywood's U571 switching out British naval personnel for American ones and other flights of fancy. Although really that in of itself didn't crack the enigma code totally.

    The reality is that a combination of American ships, improved British radar technology, concentrated air support and intelligence breakthroughs shifted the balance of power in May 1943 from which the German Kreigsmarine never fully recovered.
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 2:41pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    There is, the British, euh English just aren't part of it.
    It's not a about some romantic idea of nation state but about a complex identity, something which exists in both the UK and the US, does it not?
    In what reality is the nation state a romantic idea, but a Pan-European people is some kind of reality based concept?

    I mean seriously?

    I really can't wrap my head around how Europhiles can sit there and claim that national identity doesn't exist, but that a Pan-European identity exists, whilst Greeks burn the German chancellor in effigy in the streets and demand Germans pay war reparations. And Germans complain about lazy Greeks sucking their money away and wasting it.

    Is there a secret wardrobe I have to step through to get to the parallel universe you're living in, in which the Euro crisis isn't happening and everyone is skipping hand in hand down the blue and yellow brick road to Brussels?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    also, your growth numbers don't mean ****, comparing the US or Japan to the EU makes sense, but economic growth is always bigger in developing countries that are errr developing.
    Try telling that to the 50% of Greek and Spanish young people who are unemployed. I think you'll find that to them 'my growth figures' matter quite a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Yes magically as in straight elections and no backdoor deals between heads of state, you know, a democracy.
    I really am fascinated by this alternative reality, I'm going to call it EuroWorld, where the EU is somehow the paragon of democratic accountability.

    In EuroWorld did the rejection of the Lisbon treaty by the French and Dutch people and subsequent overruling of the electorate by their governments not happen?

    In EuroWorld did the Irish not reject the Lisbon treaty and then get told to vote again and this time give the right answer?

    In EuroWorld is the European Council and the European commission elected by the people?

    In EuroWorld are electorates of nation states allowed to choose the economic policies under which they have to live?

    I really would like to know, because EuroWorld sounds like a wonderful place. Maybe if more people knew which wardrobe to go through to get to it, they might vote with their feet and follow you.
    Last edited by judoka_uk; 10/16/2012 2:48pm at .
  4. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 3:20pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    In what reality is the nation state a romantic idea, but a Pan-European people is some kind of reality based concept?
    I didn't say nation states don't exist, I say it's not the point, it's about a more complex identity as can be found in many (con)federations.

    so snip the other drivel...

    You're the anomaly, that's why you don't understand.

    Try telling that to the 50% of Greek and Spanish young people who are unemployed. I think you'll find that to them 'my growth figures' matter quite a lot.
    I didn't say they didn't matter I said they didn't compare, straw men much?

    In EuroWorld did the rejection of the Lisbon treaty by the French and Dutch people and subsequent overruling of the electorate by their governments not happen?
    The Dutch rejected their government and have been very volatile the last few years, no meaningful attempt was made to explain the treaty. Many French found it didn't even go far enough, but that doesn't matter.

    In EuroWorld did the Irish not reject the Lisbon treaty and then get told to vote again and this time give the right answer?
    Yeah that's pretty scandalous, I'm against referenda in general. But it comes down to the same thing again and again, more transparent institutions, not less institutions.
    In EuroWorld is the European Council and the European commission elected by the people?
    No, so the EP has to be stronger and the EC elected, both things you resist.

    In EuroWorld are electorates of nation states allowed to choose the economic policies under which they have to live?
    No there needs to be reform, you're standing in the way.
    Last edited by ashkelon; 10/16/2012 3:37pm at .
  5. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 3:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    I didn't say nation states don't exist, I say it's not the point, it's about a more complex identity as can be found in many (con)federations.
    How many of these confederations were imposed from the top down, on pre-existing, well established nations by a supranational body with no legitimacy from any of the nations it was imposing itself on?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    You're the anomaly, that's why you don't understand.
    No you're the anomaly just open your eyes





    We Eurosceptic Brits told you Europhiles back in 1999/2000 what would happen if you went ahead with the Euro project. You mocked us, you abused us and you ignored us.

    Now you're living with the consequences of your own arrogance and ignorance.

    It's time you took a mouthful of humble pie and admitted we were right then and accept that we're right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    I didn't say they didn't matter I said they didn't compare, straw men much?
    Hmm did you?

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    your growth numbers don't mean ****
    Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    The Dutch rejected their government,many French found it didn't even go far enough.
    No means no. Why do you guys not get this? You're like rape apologists blaming the French/ Dutch electorate for wearing too short a skirt or being out too late in the wrong part of town.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Yeah that's pretty scandalous, I'm against referenda in general. But it comes down to the same thing again and again, more transparent institutions, not less institutions.
    Yes, quite, we musn't ask the people what they think especially when they keep giving the wrong answer. Much better to carry on doing what the technocratic unaccountable elite want and hope the mindless drones don't kick up too much of a fuss. After all they're far too stupid to understand the magnificence of our grand plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    No, so the EP has to be stronger and the EC elected, both things you resist.
    Because we don't fucking want to be ruled by Brussels! Why do you think we resist it, because we don't fucking want it.

    Don't tell us that the unaccountable un-democratic nature of the EU is our fault, because we don't want to be ruled by it.

    You can't force a government onto a people that don't want, it in the name of 'democracy' that's batshit lunacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    No there needs to be reform, you're standing in the way.
    No what needs to happen is the EU needs to be destroyed, the EuroParl torn down, the commissioners forced to stand trial for crimes against democracy and politicians who connived with the megalomaniacal anti-democratic motives of the EU dictatorship found guilty and punished.

    Then the individual nation states of Europe can resume their path down their own destiny, prosperity will re-emerge, freedom from bureaucratic tyranny will return and the people's of Europe will no longer burn each other's leaders in effigy on the streets of the capital cities.
  6. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 4:07pm


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    Vince, I was referring both to WW I and II

    WW I

    Though the British maintained a tight naval blockade, the Battle of Jutland between the British and German navy (surface vessels) is considered a draw, although it is a disputed one. However, the submarine battle was a different affair.

    After some initial success, the Germans tuned it down after the incidents with the Lusitania, but later on they became more aggressive. As regards the consequences
    Britain put at bay by the U-boat threat
    In late 1916 and early 1917, the alarm bells really began to ring in Whitehall about the effect of the U-boat campaign on the present and future British war effort. Serious discussions were entered into concerning the introduction of anti-U-boat countermeasures, among which was the long touted Convoy System. In this scenario, merchant ships would travel over U-boat infested waters in a tightly controlled flotilla protected by a constant shield of fast warships.
    In 1917, the U-boat war grew more intense, with 40 U-boats on patrol at any time. The average monthly tonnage of Allied ships sunk approached half a million, despite some success with the convoy system.
    The worse British scenarios of 1916 about a supply shortage came closer to reality. In the months of April, May, and June 1917, over 2 million tons of Allied shipping was lost. Neutral nations were reluctant to put their ships to sea and 300 remained in port worldwide.
    source



    WW II
    Direct Effects
    During the war the Germans sank 5,150 allied ships displacing 21.57 million tons. Of this, the U-boats were responsible for 2828 ships of 14.69 million tons.(14) To place this in perspective, the Germans sank the equivalent of the entire British merchant fleet at the start of the war.(15) Additionally, submarines destroyed 187 warships, including 6 aircraft carriers and 2 battleships.(16) However, this tremendous destruction came at a heavy price: the Germans lost 785 submarines of 1,158 constructed.
    These losses and the loss of valuable cargo are the direct effects of the Battle of the Atlantic. In the end, however, the U-boats did not prevent the U.S. from supplying England with military and industrial goods or food, nor from building up U.S. forces in England (Operation Bolero), nor from providing Russia with substantial material help. Thus, most historians see the Battle of the Atlantic as a German failure.
    Indirect Effects
    There were, however, substantial indirect and second order effects on the allied war effort. These effects resulted in significant allied logistical constraints. For example, the indirect effects of convoying severely reduced allied transportation capacity. The Allies calculated that a ship took 18-48% longer to sail in convoy.(17) Donitz estimated the loss of time at 33% on average.(18) The impact on Army logistics and U.S. strategy was significant. In response to the German campaign, the U.S. ordered much greater quantities of munitions and supplies that was actually needed, in order to "fill the pipeline," to replace cargoes lost at sea and as a hedge against the Germans cutting the Atlantic supply lanes.(19)
    The result of this "loss of time" combined with significant losses (up until July 1943, Allied merchant ship losses exceeded production) had two effects on the Allied war effort. First, the Allies needed to produce and ship more war material than was actually required in theater. Secondly, the Allies possessed less logistical carrying capacity than desired. As a result of the lack of merchant shipping and material, the U.S. Army significantly reduced the size of their planned buildup to far more modest proportions (the original intention in 1942 was to build a large army of 16-17 million men).(20) Although speculative, it is probable that such a reduction meant that the combined U.S. and British Armies would have been incapable of defeating the Wehrmacht without the sizeable Red Army in the war.(21)
    source


    In the WW II the British navy also suffered some completely unnecessary losses, such as the two battleships Prince Of Wales and Repulse sent to Asia by Winston Churchill (who had modernized the Navy years earlier). The ships were lacked proper escorts to fend the Japanese planes off, and were consequently lost. But hey, that's Pacific right?

    Also, the route to Murmansk had to be shut down, b/c of the high losses suffered by the Allied fleet. Luckily, during the time the route was in operation, the SU received desperately needed supplies.
  7. ashkelon is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 4:13pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    just what I need, another nationalist.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    How many of these confederations were imposed from the top down, on pre-existing, well established nations by a supranational body with no legitimacy from any of the nations it was imposing itself on?
    Wait, what's the catch?



    Economic trouble is followed by blaming others, news at 11.
    We Eurosceptic Brits told you Europhiles back in 1999/2000 what would happen if you went ahead with the Euro project. You mocked us, you abused us and you ignored us.
    And you've taken every opportunity to obstruct and derail, thanks.

    No means no. Why do you guys not get this? You're like rape apologists blaming the French/ Dutch electorate for wearing too short a skirt or being out too late in the wrong part of town.
    Well you can pretend all you want, but these referenda show the weakness of referenda.
    It's just an unsuitable means, much better would've been a normal legislative campaign and representative vote. Unless you come from a culture of referenda as the Swiss, it's really not very democratic.
    That said, I agree it's a scandal.

    Because we don't fucking want to be ruled by Brussels! Why do you think we resist it, because we don't fucking want it.
    Believe me, we don't want you either.

    You can't force a government onto a people that don't want, it in the name of 'democracy' that's batshit lunacy.
    That's YOUR government, not the EU, your problem. The EU is very well accepted in my country.
    No what needs to happen is the EU needs to be destroyed, the EuroParl torn down, the commissioners forced to stand trial for crimes against democracy and politicians who connived with the megalomaniacal anti-democratic motives of the EU dictatorship found guilty and punished.

    Then the individual nation states of Europe can resume their path down their own destiny, prosperity will re-emerge, freedom from bureaucratic tyranny will return and the people's of Europe will no longer burn each other's leaders in effigy on the streets of the capital cities.
    And here was I thinking we had a semi-serious conversation. Are you one of them war obsessed brits?
  8. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 4:16pm


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    You don't need 'a demos' for democracy. Even in ancient Athens, a large part of the demos could NOT vote: women, metoikoi, and slaves. Why can't several nationes/peoples vote in one system? Here we have that 'nation state' thinking again 'one nation, one democratic state' Bullshit. Does the motto 'e pluribus unum' ring a bell?


    And there DOES exist a process called ethnogenesis, it is happening all the time. In the US they used to call it 'the melting pot'. And take examples like the Great Britain or France: there are actually distinct peoples in those states voting for a government: the Basques, the Bretons, Alsacians (Germans), Corsicans and 'French'.

    Spain evolved from several distinct kingdoms into one state (Navarra, Castile, Leon, Aragon), so why wouldn't it work?

    You should stop talking about 'the Dutch no': in the first place, you know jack **** about our politicians, our relations with the UK and our stance towards the EU. But it suits your argument, so you go on and on, making a fool of yourself.

    Fact: the Dutch were one of the founding nations of the EU (and its predecessors)
    Fact: we have generally speaking always staunchly supported the EU
  9. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 4:22pm


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    The ECSC and the EEC were founded for two main reasons

    - prevent war by making the European states mutually dependent economically
    - keep the Russkies out.

    It succeeded splendidly in both ways, and it should be strengthened. If China and India + Brasil continue to grow and claim more of the reserves of this planet, I'd rather be able to make a united economic and political fist, than to wait for their mercy and generosity, which will be in vain.

    Living like the dog off the scraps of its masters' table is a miserable existence.
  10. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/16/2012 4:30pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    just what I need, another democrat
    I know, we're terribly tiresome aren't we, with our demand that the people should have a choice in how they're governed.

    Life would be so much easier if you could have a Volksgemeinschaft in which everyone had to adhere to common European purpose and unite on a common European response to catastrophe...

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Wait, what's the catch?
    Only democracy and the will of the people, but as we've established that's not a problem as far as you're concerned.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Economic trouble is followed by blaming others, news at 11.
    Mate, seriously! Wake up and smell the fucking Euro.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    And you've taken every opportunity to obstruct and derail, thanks
    You're right we should apologise un-reservedly for obstructing the process of removing our national sovereignty and destroying our hard won democracy in the name of preserving democracy.

    You're right, we're terrible sorry. In future we'll hand over all our rightss like good little slaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Well you can pretend all you want, but these referenda show the weakness of referenda.
    It's just an unsuitable means, much better would've been a normal legislative campaign and representative vote. Unless you come from a culture of referenda as the Swiss, it's really not very democratic.
    No, we come from a culture of parliamentary democracy, a system of government which all you European nations ape and a culture which rejects the totalitarian Euro project, because we value freedom over the illusion of stability.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    Believe me, we don't want you either.
    Go on then. Kick us out and do your worst, come on we dare you!

    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    That's YOUR government, not the EU, your problem. The EU is very well accepted in my country.
    Our government is a bunch of disgusting quislings. However, fear not in my lifetime we will unshackle ourselves from the European corpse and Britannia unchained will once again be astride the world like a colossus. Whilst European countries will wallow in the mire of bureaucratic incompetence, indolence and poverty until they one by one free themselves from the grip on the Euromaniacs in Brussels.


    Quote Originally Posted by ashkelon View Post
    And here was I thinking we had a semi-serious conversation. Are you one of them war obsessed brits?
    We were having a semi-serious conversation until you started pretending the EU is democratic. Then all that went out of the window.

    It's you Eurocrats who are war obsessed with your demented belief that without the EU German stormtroopers would be raping Belgian women as their saturday night entertainment.
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