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  1. watchman is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/13/2012 12:05pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Hiza Guruma vs Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi

    We've been practicing Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi more lately, but one of the instructors told me that my Sasae was more like a Hiza Guruma because it was too high. We never had instruction on Hiza Guruma before, I've just seen it done a few times and looked it up online. Is Hiza Guruma just Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi with your foot targeting the knee instead of the ankle? I thought it was, but some searching around leads me to believe I was probably wrong.

    The below video demonstrates both throws, and some other Ashi Waza techniques. I think it looks good, but there are two problems I have: 1) I'm a Gokyu (some days still feel like a Rokyu) so I don't know how much confidence I can have in deciding what Judo videos are good or bad or why, and 2) the video doesn't give a detailed breakdown of the Kuzushi involved. As far as I can tell, it looks the same for both throws with different foot placement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm2e9CClGk4

    I'm posting this mainly because of a comment by PTNippon about his Sasae video below. Someone asks him about Hiza Guruma vs. Sasae, and he writes the following:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-LJ5SLqAg8

    "The dynamics of hiza guruma and STA are quite different. STA has a lift while hiza guruma has no lift and uke is supposed to be rotated over along an imaginary axis. Hiza guruma is done while tori and uke have quite a bit of space between them while you need to be close to uke in STA to be able to achieve the proper lift necessary. On surface they may appear similiar but they are very different throws."

    Really, no lift with Hiza Guruma? I don't quite understand the differences between the throws other than where I'm supposed to connect with my attacking foot. Should I do Sasae when moving towards and to the side of my opponent but Hiza Guruma when moving backwards? Should I favor one over the other?

    Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I'd rather split the hairs and get commentary so I know what I'm doing than end up with a sloppy mishmash technique. I'm already throwing too many Harai O Toshis (where I mean to throw a Harai Goshi, but my footwork ends up more like Tai O Toshi), and that never ends well.
    Last edited by watchman; 5/13/2012 12:28pm at . Reason: Hmm, tried to embed the videos to play in the post but I must be doing something wrong since they only display as links.
  2. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2012 1:13pm

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     Style: Judo

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    With the hiza guruma, you keep your arms fairly long and swing around while blocking the shin. You'd usually do it as your opponent comes forward, and you are basically jumping out of the way and throwing him where your body used to be.

    With sase you pull them in towards you and up off their feet before tapping the foot and tipping them over.
  3. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/13/2012 1:14pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by watchman View Post
    We've been practicing Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi more lately, but one of the instructors told me that my Sasae was more like a Hiza Guruma because it was too high. We never had instruction on Hiza Guruma before, I've just seen it done a few times and looked it up online. Is Hiza Guruma just Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi with your foot targeting the knee instead of the ankle? I thought it was, but some searching around leads me to believe I was probably wrong.
    I know exactly why you're having this problem, its because you're doing it wrong.

    Pound to a penny you're starting square on with your partner, like so



    And then stepping outwards and forwards diagonally to do the Sasae, like so



    When you do the inital step at a diagonal the effect is that in order to get your foot in place you lean backwards.



    The effect of leaning backwards is that your foot rises high off the floor, it has to for you to stay vaguely on balance.

    Try it for yourself, stand up now. Take a diagonal step and then try and put your foot in position as if you were doing the throw.

    Every beginner has the problem with Sasae and its always because they're starting square on to the uke and then step diagonally.

    To avoid this, always start offset from your uke when practicing Sasae



    Then simply step straight forward and perform the throw.

    Off setting before you start will immediately and permanently resolve your Sasae-Hiza problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by watchman View Post
    Really, no lift with Hiza Guruma?




    Which one had a clear and visible lift?

    Quote Originally Posted by watchman View Post
    I don't quite understand the differences between the throws other than where I'm supposed to connect with my attacking foot.
    Always look at the names of the throws.

    Sasae tsurikomi ashi

    Hiza guruma

    Tsurikomi means lifting binding and Guruma comes from Kuruma and means to pivot around a fixed point.

    This is why Ptnippon is saying Hiza guruma has 'no lift' of course you have to break balance and there's probably going to be some elevation of uke involved. However, the throwing principle is that you rotate uke around a fixed point. That fixed point being your foot on uke's knee.

    Sasae tsurikomi ashi they're are thrown by being lifted and bound to you with your foot merely acting as a block. The Muneta video above is a perfect illustration of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by watchman View Post
    Should I do Sasae when moving towards and to the side of my opponent but Hiza Guruma when moving backwards? Should I favor one over the other?
    I do my Sasae standing still. I do all my Judo standing still. Movement is for girls and children, real men do their Judo with absolutely no movement.

    Quote Originally Posted by watchman View Post
    Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I'd rather split the hairs and get commentary so I know what I'm doing than end up with a sloppy mishmash technique. I'm already throwing too many Harai O Toshis (where I mean to throw a Harai Goshi, but my footwork ends up more like Tai O Toshi), and that never ends well.
    Tai otoshi and Harai goshi have the same entry footwork...
  4. watchman is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2012 12:32am


     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I know exactly why you're having this problem, its because you're doing it wrong.
    You're right, I was lining up that way.

    Which one had a clear and visible lift?
    So the right answer should be "the second one," but just from watching them I would've said it was both. Even the commentator on the first video says Delgado "pushes upward with his left arm," and that seems clearly visible to me. Maybe that's because he starts the throw from such a low position?

    Muneta's leg hits Uke just below the knee instead of the ankle. Is that bad form or often just par for the course given a resisting opponent?

    Always look at the names of the throws.

    Sasae tsurikomi ashi

    Hiza guruma

    Tsurikomi means lifting binding and Guruma comes from Kuruma and means to pivot around a fixed point.
    I'm going to think about that next practice and try both as distinct movements.

    I do my Sasae standing still. I do all my Judo standing still. Movement is for girls and children, real men do their Judo with absolutely no movement.
    Tried and failed. Maybe I need louder kiai.

    Tai otoshi and Harai goshi have the same entry footwork...
    I was taught (and I'm not trying to claim rightness, just saying this is what they told me to do) to enter differently. For a Harai, I was taught to enter with my right foot closer to Uke's right foot. For Tai Otoshi, I was taught to enter with my right foot closer to Uke's left foot.
  5. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2012 1:32am

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     Style: Kodokan Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, you left out the whole dynamic delay thing, LOL! I guess there is enough confusion already.

    To the OP, check out these videos. They may help.

    Regarding the entries vis a vis Harai Goshi and Tai Otoshi, chuck those two throws and work on Tsurikomi Goshi (if you O Goshi is already OK). Doing throws on one leg (Harai Goshi) before you are stable on two legs is not a good idea. Tai Otoshi is complex, not impossible, but you would be well served to get your tsrurikomi action in good shape before tackling it.

    Last edited by BKR; 5/14/2012 1:34am at . Reason: Forgot Video!
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  6. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2012 5:58am

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    Quote Originally Posted by watchman View Post
    So the right answer should be "the second one," but just from watching them I would've said it was both. Even the commentator on the first video says Delgado "pushes upward with his left arm," and that seems clearly visible to me. Maybe that's because he starts the throw from such a low position?

    Muneta's leg hits Uke just below the knee instead of the ankle. Is that bad form or often just par for the course given a resisting opponent?
    Just a bit of drift due to contest conditions.

    If you make the positioning adjustment I recommended you wont really need to worry about minor cosmetic differences as they will be resolved.

    See this article I wrote on Sasae if you'd like more info:
    http://thedifficultway.blogspot.co.u...komi-ashi.html

    Quote Originally Posted by watchman View Post
    Tried and failed. Maybe I need louder kiai.
    I was being facetious, but its an important point. All throws can be done in all directions and with all sorts of movement by uke. Don't get caught up in Judo geometry i.e if uke moves his foot back 8 inches at an angle of 45 degrees then I attack with throw X.

    I genuinely do my Sasae from basically a static position. What I think is most important is not static or moving or even direction of movement, its how you and your uke are positioned relative to each other. For Sasae this means when you're offset, as outlined above, usually in randori this means an extreme Right on Right or Left on Left stance.



    Quote Originally Posted by watchman View Post
    I was taught (and I'm not trying to claim rightness, just saying this is what they told me to do) to enter differently. For a Harai, I was taught to enter with my right foot closer to Uke's right foot. For Tai Otoshi, I was taught to enter with my right foot closer to Uke's left foot.
    There's not really any reason to do that, apart from adding an extra layer of complexity. Both throws are usually done with the foot being placed at the top of the triangle equi-distant between uke's feet.

    Like so

  7. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2012 5:58am

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    Hey, you left out the whole dynamic delay thing, LOL! I guess there is enough confusion already.
    No dynamic delay TM its all about the static Judo.
  8. BKR is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2012 6:36am

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    No dynamic delay TM its all about the static Judo.
    LOL, I forgot the TM, dammit!

    Yes, static before dynamic, I suppose. The offset needs to be there either way, more or less.
    Falling for Judo since 1980
  9. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/14/2012 2:13pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BKR View Post
    LOL, I forgot the TM, dammit!

    Yes, static before dynamic, I suppose. The offset needs to be there either way, more or less.
    Having a bit of a think and I'm struggling to remember a time I've thrown someone in randori or contest that wasn't from a static or basically static situation. Then again that's heavyweight Judo for you isn't it. Plod about abit, stop, attempt throw, plod some more, stop, attempt throw, plod...
  10. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/14/2012 4:04pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    J

    I genuinely do my Sasae from basically a static position. What I think is most important is not static or moving or even direction of movement, its how you and your uke are positioned relative to each other. For Sasae this means when you're offset, as outlined above, usually in randori this means an extreme Right on Right or Left on Left stance.

    Interesting- I have been taught and use sasae in an entirely different way. Sasae is not a throw I normally do from extreme ai yotsu--it's usually kenka yotsu and always lapel-side sasae as I'm moving around uke to the right (I'm lefty). My coach teaches sasae (or a sasae-like motion without actually propping the leg) as the intro to many combinations (sasae-ouchi-uchi mata, sasae-ko uch-tai otoshi, sasae-osoto gari, etc.).

    I've also been taught to vary the foot position for the entry based on the throw but it's an advanced detail.

    Hiza guruma is not in my working repertoire, but the thing that really stands out in Delgado's hiza guruma is his pull and control with his hikite hand.
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