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  1. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/16/2012 10:44pm

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    So he just wants to make sure the person actually has good technique and can prove he has 1st dan rank and was tested under the first master. So he has him video it and then sends for kukkiwon rank.
    If he had 1st dan rank, he would have a certificate and wouldn't need to send in videos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    That is a totally legitimate situation. Its way different than some guy who has never reached black belt to just find some random guy online to buy a peice of paper from.
    Here's a hypothetical for you: a student walks in to any given dojo/dojang/kwoon, etc. and lays some bullshit story on the instructor. "I was getting ready to test for black belt and my master had to go back to Japan/Korea/China, etc. He/she had to stay in Asia to help with their family, therefore I cannot be promoted. My master also doesn't give out certificates, but told me I am ready to be a black belt".
    How about this one: "My house burned down/was burglarized/was swept away in a hurricane and all my martial arts certificates were lost. My master died years ago, and I can't prove I am a black belt. Is there any way you can cross-rank me?"

    If your friend really sits down and thinks about it, he can add a lot of details and maybe someone will actually believe his story. The best (not necessarily the easiest) thing for your friend to do: find a legitimate school, sign up, train hard, pay his dues and earn that rank the old fashioned way. Bullshit like this video testing adulterates the integrity of legitimate martial artists and makes the rank lose value. Shortcuts are o.k. if you are on a vacation or running errands, but have no place in the martial arts.
    Last edited by slamdunc; 5/16/2012 10:48pm at .
  2. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2012 8:00am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    Thanks a lot for the info man. I would thinkt hat KKW would see popular websites, or people promoting themselves and using their kukkiwon rank to sell certification over the internet. The KKW should shut stuff like this down, but whatever...it is how it is.
    Legally they cannot shut down anything unless it is infringing on KKW trademarking. They can also sue if a person is saying that they are ranking people with KKW certificates and they turn out to be fake. The only thing that KKW really has power over is not accepting any rank requests from individuals. Again, they don't have the man power to comb through the internet to find these types of individuals and then have the man power and money to prove that they are not doing things properly.

    ya ISA's website does not look credible, but if they do help people get KKW rank and its real then ok, i still think its dumb. What caused you to join that group? Do they also claim they are a Christian organization? I saw something about that on their site.
    I do not know what they do now and days. If they are touting a Christian organization, it was either after my time with them or I really did not pay attention to what they were doing. I would have to try and dig up my old paperwork to see when I was even involved with them. I want to say it was around 2002 or so.

    Anyway, I honestly do not care what they do. It is not for me but it apparently works for others.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  3. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2012 11:07am


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    If he had 1st dan rank, he would have a certificate and wouldn't need to send in videos.


    Here's a hypothetical for you: a student walks in to any given dojo/dojang/kwoon, etc. and lays some bullshit story on the instructor. "I was getting ready to test for black belt and my master had to go back to Japan/Korea/China, etc. He/she had to stay in Asia to help with their family, therefore I cannot be promoted. My master also doesn't give out certificates, but told me I am ready to be a black belt".
    How about this one: "My house burned down/was burglarized/was swept away in a hurricane and all my martial arts certificates were lost. My master died years ago, and I can't prove I am a black belt. Is there any way you can cross-rank me?"

    If your friend really sits down and thinks about it, he can add a lot of details and maybe someone will actually believe his story. The best (not necessarily the easiest) thing for your friend to do: find a legitimate school, sign up, train hard, pay his dues and earn that rank the old fashioned way. Bullshit like this video testing adulterates the integrity of legitimate martial artists and makes the rank lose value. Shortcuts are o.k. if you are on a vacation or running errands, but have no place in the martial arts.
    Thats not the case. Also that story hs nothing to do with my friend. BUt its another example of someone else. If he gets 1st dan kukkiwon but 2nd dan in another lesser organization but needs kukkiwon 2nd dan to match then it makes sense. Also the person testing him personally knew the grandmaster who died and also has seen the student at a tournament.

    There are plausible cases for video testing.
  4. Andrew WA is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/17/2012 11:09am


     Style: Taekwondo/Eskrima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Miguksaram View Post
    Legally they cannot shut down anything unless it is infringing on KKW trademarking. They can also sue if a person is saying that they are ranking people with KKW certificates and they turn out to be fake. The only thing that KKW really has power over is not accepting any rank requests from individuals. Again, they don't have the man power to comb through the internet to find these types of individuals and then have the man power and money to prove that they are not doing things properly.


    I do not know what they do now and days. If they are touting a Christian organization, it was either after my time with them or I really did not pay attention to what they were doing. I would have to try and dig up my old paperwork to see when I was even involved with them. I want to say it was around 2002 or so.

    Anyway, I honestly do not care what they do. It is not for me but it apparently works for others.
    Its not for me either if its just a random person finding a website and emailing a instructor and asking to get dan rank. I think it cheapens the martial arts to sell it over the internet, unless of course the board of directors un charge can actually somehow give a proper test.
    I know the gracie's are doing internet testing as well...
  5. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2012 11:59am

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew WA View Post
    I know the gracie's are doing internet testing as well...
    When it comes down to it, most organizations will sell-out. The bottom-line is their bottom-line; money motivated people to a point of compromise.

    I wasn't jabbing at your friend, just a generalization of McDojoism, Bullshido and Belt-Mills.
  6. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2012 1:51pm

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    When it comes down to it, most organizations will sell-out. The bottom-line is their bottom-line; money motivated people to a point of compromise.

    I wasn't jabbing at your friend, just a generalization of McDojoism, Bullshido and Belt-Mills.
    Off topic real quick....what part of Illinois do you live?
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


    SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!
  7. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/17/2012 2:50pm

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     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Miguksaram View Post
    Off topic real quick....what part of Illinois do you live?
    Southern (38.26 miles east of Southern Illinois University Carbondale) where are you located?
  8. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 8:00am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    Southern (38.26 miles east of Southern Illinois University Carbondale) where are you located?
    I am in Aurora about 25-30 miles west/southwest of Chicago. I grew up in Springfield/Virden area.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


    SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!
  9. yieldingbamboo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/27/2012 11:22am


     Style: TKD, Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by slamdunc View Post
    If your friend really sits down and thinks about it, he can add a lot of details and maybe someone will actually believe his story. The best (not necessarily the easiest) thing for your friend to do: find a legitimate school, sign up, train hard, pay his dues and earn that rank the old fashioned way. Bullshit like this video testing adulterates the integrity of legitimate martial artists and makes the rank lose value. Shortcuts are o.k. if you are on a vacation or running errands, but have no place in the martial arts.
    I happen to be the friend he's talking about. I'm not a fan of video testing either, but I'd like to at least get a 1st dan, something to keep instructors from trying to BS me into paying them more money when I go to train at their dojang. I'm 3rd dan in Songahm Taekwondo under the ATA and WTTU, and although I personally worked very hard for my rank and paid attention to the finer details of what my master was teaching in my school, 95% of the other students didn't give a crap and still got their rank. It always bothered me but I didn't condemn it until after I left ATA because I was just too rapped up in their stupid hype. Anyway, I want to teach within the next few years but i'd like to have Kukkiwon ranking and not ATA by reason of what I've said above. I earned my belt, but I didn't HAVE to earn my belt, and that's what bugs me the most.

    Bullshido judges martial artists by their videos all the day long. A good instructor should be able to look at my test video and ascertain whether or not I am of at least 1st dan quality. Same logic. I can look at a video and tell if someone is performing the Songahm forms correctly. Do I like video testing? No. Do think it's entirely bogus or without context? I'd say no to that too. I'm not taking a short cut, thank you very much, I know Taekwondo and I've been training in it for a little more than a decade, in a dojang or not.

    Personally I'd like to get ranking closer to my ATA ranking, probably 2nd dan, but I doubt that'll happen. I've had my 3rd dan for 7 years and I've never stopped practicing my Taekwondo kicks even when I was training in other styles/schools. If I had been WTF all along I could be 4th dan right now, getting close to testing for 5th.

    If I do 1st dan testing in a school, it's fine with me. But I'm not in the mood to be put back into some stupid colored belt and made to pay two testing fees before I have to pay the whopping 1st dan testing and certification fees. I already went through this crap with kenpo karate. I could kick 10000x better than any of the black belts, had better hand strikes than most of the higher colored belts, but I had to start from the bottom even though my TKD training had all the same basics as Kenpo, and I picked up the dumb slappy techniques immediately.
  10. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/27/2012 12:17pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by yieldingbamboo View Post
    If I do 1st dan testing in a school, it's fine with me. But I'm not in the mood to be put back into some stupid colored belt and made to pay two testing fees before I have to pay the whopping 1st dan testing and certification fees.
    That is a dilemma of sorts, and I don't blame you for not wanting to start at the bottom rung of the ladder every time. These associations are money-motivated, and they will bleed you dry. If you already have the training, surely you can find an instructor who will honor your rank if you are in a similar style. I enjoyed my TKD training; I had an honorable teacher who was in it more for love of the game than profit.
    I went in with three years of Kenpo experience; I spent seven months learning forms and the technical aspects of TKD. I then assisted with and ran classes, and this helped with my eventual promotion to BB.
    With the new information, I would say you have been paying your dues, but you still have to find someone to work with you.
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