Thoughts on handling rank

[Tom .C]

You have suggested that as a shodan you feel that your skills are solid. You also have suggested that you have developed a better way to teach your art. This suggests that your instructors were doing an inadequate job of teaching. How were you able to aquire solid skills from inadequate teachers?

[Colin]

I've altered some techniques to better incorporate the "aiki" principles (as opposed to the jujutsu versions).

See, to me - this sounds very much like you are completely changing the characteristic of the art that you are teaching. Furthermore, it actually sounds like you are making it even less combat effective.

See, I don't even really consider my changes as establishing a different "style"

Quite a few people WILL consider it to be a different style.

I'm toying with the idea of offering to teach students the testing curriculum of the NGAA so they would be able to easily reach an appropriate rank if they changed schools.

Why would you bother teaching two separate curriculum? If you want your students to have transferable ranks, you're going to have to be sanctioned by the NGA and I'm imagining they are going to want you to be higher than Shodan. You say the ranks have changed, and that your shodan should now be a sandan. While I'll admit that this is possible, I'm guessing that there has been a major restructuring on the actual grading techniques, and not merely an inflationary name change, and hence - the real problem with you teaching under NGA is that you're not qualified to do so under their system.

There have been others who broke away from the original association (now including three of my previous instructors, one of whom was the senior active instructor in the art). All have continued using the NGA nomenclature, with no fuss from anyone, so I don't expect it to be any issue.

ie: other people have done it, so I can too? Sounds flimsy.

There is, in fact, a valid question as to whether what I'll be teaching is NGA. However, given that the current curriculum of the NGAA was created entirely by Mr. Bowe when he came to the US (in other words, it's not the format of the curriculum that was taught to him - he did then what I'm doing now), I don't think there's much support for the idea that I'd be breaking tradition in a way that makes it not NGA.

Honestly this has nothing to do with anything. The only inference I take from this is that NGA was shitty and suspicious from the beginning, with no intervention from you.

It seems pretty clear that for whatever combination of reasons, you don't want to be a part of the NGA, therefore I strongly recommend changing the name.

As for the original question pertaining to rank? If it's your own system, as others have said nobody gives a **** what you call yourself in your own system, because it ain't worth the price of a poop.

Note, that I'm not actually saying your art is bad, or that your skills are lacklustre, but you should definitely drop the NGA moniker if you don't want association with them. Especially considering that (I'm guessing) that you don't have a sanctioned teaching rank in their system.

If you want some sort of recognition of rank, join an organisation with recognised ranks, other than that - why not go the whole hog and call yourself 10th Dan, that way it will be easy for other people to see how full of your own bullshit you are.

[Aikironin21]

In about a decade or so I will be doing what you are talking about. I have been training Aikido for about 18 years, and just in the past few years started promoting so I can teach when I retire from state service. I also am returning to Kajukenbo training, as well as taking on jujitsu, and some MMA training. I am planning on teaching self defense, but I don't believe obtaining shodan is the credential I am looking for to claim or found a new system or organization.

I think if you really want to be taken seriously, outside your own circle, you need to continue your training in your original system, and promote. Even founding your own system, you have a credibility issue due to a lack of rank. I may be wrong, but I think this could easily be over come by effectiveness of your new system, in either combat or competition. Let's face it, if what you come up with works, and you can pass on that knowledge so others can achieve the same results consistently, then no one will care you left your original system at shodan. Some competitors may try and slam you with that, but your system will speak for itself by results.

If all you are doing is changing some training methods, to update them to more modern times, and making small changes to the way techniques are done, you may not be too far off from the original system to warrant a name change. In the dojo I train at, we sometimes use more modern attacks in training instead of the traditional Aikido straight arm chops. There is no reason why you can't stay true to your original system and supplement with your new material. Then when you attain a higher ranking that you feel comfortable with for making a split, or your original organization allows you to branch off with its blessing, you will have the credibility you are looking for. Shodan may not be the rank to do that at. Even though the organization may have made changes in which your level of knowledge may be a higher rank, you should test and achieve that higher rank.

Saying, to a prospective student, "I have a shodan, but it's more like a sandan, because of some restructuring" does sound shady. I have been training a long time, and am looking to test for second kyu this year. With the amount of time I have been training, I have knowledge and experience that surpasses the shodans I train with regularly. I have ideas and variations in which I believe make some things more practical, and easier to learn. i am not about to go out and start a school, and say, "I made it to third kyu, and was about to test for second, but with the amount time I have trained and the things I have learned, I would be a nidan right now." I don't think rank is important in a practical sense, but the issue here is more about credibility. Either stand on your shodan, and forget about the comparison in the original sytem, or continue your training there till feel you have achieved a rank credible for doing what you are trying to do with your new school.

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

at the OP,

Just put a Ryu name in front of your version of Nihon Goshin Aikido to differenciate your school/style from the original NGA.
That's one of the most common ways in the JMA scene.
It will also indicate that while your students are training "NGA", they are not training the "NGA" of the "NGAA" and therefor have no connection with that organisation besides the common history upto the point of the split-off.
Give it a decent "xxxx-Ryu" name, preferably Japanese and not over the top: "Different Journey-Ryu" sounds better than "asskicking, ballbreaking supreme Samurai-Ryu" (maybe the latter will sound beter in Japanese than the first ;-) , but you get my point).

Give yourself just one teacher's rank (in this case probably Shodan) above your senior student and get a higher rank each time your most senior student reaches your old rank level.
Also the most common practise in JMA.
Don't hurry to become a 10th Dangrade, it's better to end a 4th Dan and have a solid style with solid practiseners compaired to the other NGA styles than end up with some 9th Dans that are mediocre at best.

Hope that this helps.

[Aikironin21]

One of the problems with Aikido, though, is that the serious understanding and progress begins at or after shodan. I am not familiar with his original system of Aikido. The schools I have been around, it seems, the kyu ranks and even some of the shodans are just scraping the surface of the techniques even within compliant partner practice. I am very suspect of anyone who claims to have trained in Aikido, "understands Aikido basics", or their system "has Aikido in it" I would be equally suspect of anyone who is attempting to branch off or split out on his own, who is a shodan. In my experience, many shodan lack the knowledge and/or experience to effectively utilize technique. Not to say that the OP does, he may very well be a prodigy and every bit of capable. The problem I see, is when he is trying to grow his school, and he doesn't even know how to explain or justify his own rank. I suggest going further with his current training, collecting his rank, while he works on his new system, or training method. I think we can all agree here, that shodan is a low rank to try to branch out on your own. Even the OP realizes this; otherwise, why would he be here asking about how to represent himself as a higher rank, he may not have actually earned.

It doesn't sound to me as though he founding a new art to be able to title himself as founder or master or senior instructor or whatever. It sounds as though, he is just doing the same ol thing his original system is doing, just with different training methods. I have been to to three different dojo within the same Aikido association, and they each have their own way doing things. Even withing standard techniques, they have their own personal spin on how to do them, as do I, as does any one who trains over time and with many partners. It doesn't mean they each have made a new style, and the governing association under which they train doesn't condemn them as heretics. In fact, I'm not sure of the op's experience, but I'm sure if he broadened his horizons a little he would find many people, within the Aikido community who may have already adopted a way similar to what he is doing. I say if he is concerned with his credibility and the appearance of being pretentious by assuming grandiose titles or ranks, continue promoting under his current association till he has satisfactorily achieved a suitable rank in his mind to put his concerns to rest.

[GoshinAiki]

You have suggested that as a shodan you feel that your skills are solid. You also have suggested that you have developed a better way to teach your art. This suggests that your instructors were doing an inadequate job of teaching. How were you able to aquire solid skills from inadequate teachers?

Actually, "better" doesn't require "inadequate". Even "really good" can be improved upon. In fact, I'd assert that a really good instructor can overcome poor curriculum. I find that some of the way the art is structured limits how well the newer students progress - in some cases actually engendering bad habits. That's the primary part I'm changing.

There's no need for a confrontation approach in this thread. I believe what I'm doing is an improvement over the prior structure (obviously, or I wouldn't spend my time and effort doing it), but that doesn't mean I think the prior structure is crap - just that I see some things that can be improved upon. If I'm wrong, I'll figure it out after I've fully rolled out this curriculum.

[GoshinAiki]

See, to me - this sounds very much like you are completely changing the characteristic of the art that you are teaching. Furthermore, it actually sounds like you are making it even less combat effective.


Quite a few people WILL consider it to be a different style.


Why would you bother teaching two separate curriculum? If you want your students to have transferable ranks, you're going to have to be sanctioned by the NGA and I'm imagining they are going to want you to be higher than Shodan. You say the ranks have changed, and that your shodan should now be a sandan. While I'll admit that this is possible, I'm guessing that there has been a major restructuring on the actual grading techniques, and not merely an inflationary name change, and hence - the real problem with you teaching under NGA is that you're not qualified to do so under their system.


ie: other people have done it, so I can too? Sounds flimsy.


Honestly this has nothing to do with anything. The only inference I take from this is that NGA was shitty and suspicious from the beginning, with no intervention from you.

It seems pretty clear that for whatever combination of reasons, you don't want to be a part of the NGA, therefore I strongly recommend changing the name.

As for the original question pertaining to rank? If it's your own system, as others have said nobody gives a **** what you call yourself in your own system, because it ain't worth the price of a poop.

Note, that I'm not actually saying your art is bad, or that your skills are lacklustre, but you should definitely drop the NGA moniker if you don't want association with them. Especially considering that (I'm guessing) that you don't have a sanctioned teaching rank in their system.

If you want some sort of recognition of rank, join an organisation with recognised ranks, other than that - why not go the whole hog and call yourself 10th Dan, that way it will be easy for other people to see how full of your own bullshit you are.

Hmm... I think you and I have a difference of perception on a key point. You see, I don't see the art (NGA) as being just the NGAA. There are at least two groups (both sets of instructors senior to me, actually) who teach NGA and issue rank using essentially the same curriculum as the NGAA (some of them making relatively minor adjustments).

I guess I see it this way: if I were the only person outside the NGAA, then I wouldn't want to muddy the waters and I'd have to rename it. However, since the NGAA represents something like 60-70% of NGA in the US, it's definitely dominant, but doesn't really define the art as a whole.

(As to the comment about reducing combat effectiveness, I'm not even sure how you can diagnose that from the fact that I'm talking about being more "aiki". We're not talking about the "love and peace" stuff, but working in ways that require less force. That need neither improve nor reduce the combat effectiveness of anything. My intent is to improve the ability of students to use it for self-defense. Along the way, I'll make the adjustments necessary to do so, and terms don't really affect that outcome.)

[GoshinAiki]

at the OP,

Just put a Ryu name in front of your version of Nihon Goshin Aikido to differenciate your school/style from the original NGA.
That's one of the most common ways in the JMA scene.
It will also indicate that while your students are training "NGA", they are not training the "NGA" of the "NGAA" and therefor have no connection with that organisation besides the common history upto the point of the split-off.
Give it a decent "xxxx-Ryu" name, preferably Japanese and not over the top: "Different Journey-Ryu" sounds better than "asskicking, ballbreaking supreme Samurai-Ryu" (maybe the latter will sound beter in Japanese than the first ;-) , but you get my point).

Give yourself just one teacher's rank (in this case probably Shodan) above your senior student and get a higher rank each time your most senior student reaches your old rank level.
Also the most common practise in JMA.
Don't hurry to become a 10th Dangrade, it's better to end a 4th Dan and have a solid style with solid practiseners compaired to the other NGA styles than end up with some 9th Dans that are mediocre at best.

Hope that this helps.

That's not a bad idea, and I've actually toyed with trying to add some sort of identifier like that. I'd have to have some help from someone with some knowledge of Japanese or I'll just embarrass myself (I'd end up with something that translated to "Butthurt NGA", with my luck). And I just have no interest in putting my name on it - again, too ego-y. I'll mull this over some more, and I appreciate the advice.

[GoshinAiki]

One of the problems with Aikido, though, is that the serious understanding and progress begins at or after shodan. I am not familiar with his original system of Aikido. The schools I have been around, it seems, the kyu ranks and even some of the shodans are just scraping the surface of the techniques even within compliant partner practice. I am very suspect of anyone who claims to have trained in Aikido, "understands Aikido basics", or their system "has Aikido in it" I would be equally suspect of anyone who is attempting to branch off or split out on his own, who is a shodan. In my experience, many shodan lack the knowledge and/or experience to effectively utilize technique. Not to say that the OP does, he may very well be a prodigy and every bit of capable. The problem I see, is when he is trying to grow his school, and he doesn't even know how to explain or justify his own rank. I suggest going further with his current training, collecting his rank, while he works on his new system, or training method. I think we can all agree here, that shodan is a low rank to try to branch out on your own. Even the OP realizes this; otherwise, why would he be here asking about how to represent himself as a higher rank, he may not have actually earned.

It doesn't sound to me as though he founding a new art to be able to title himself as founder or master or senior instructor or whatever. It sounds as though, he is just doing the same ol thing his original system is doing, just with different training methods. I have been to to three different dojo within the same Aikido association, and they each have their own way doing things. Even withing standard techniques, they have their own personal spin on how to do them, as do I, as does any one who trains over time and with many partners. It doesn't mean they each have made a new style, and the governing association under which they train doesn't condemn them as heretics. In fact, I'm not sure of the op's experience, but I'm sure if he broadened his horizons a little he would find many people, within the Aikido community who may have already adopted a way similar to what he is doing. I say if he is concerned with his credibility and the appearance of being pretentious by assuming grandiose titles or ranks, continue promoting under his current association till he has satisfactorily achieved a suitable rank in his mind to put his concerns to rest.

I think I wasn't clear enough. I'm actually trying NOT to represent myself with a rank higher than my own. That's really the issue, because I'm also averse to promoting myself every few years (a suggestion from someone with more experience than myself) to keep my rank appropriate. That's one of the reasons I'm looking at a different rank system, and considering simply not claiming ANY rank, to avoid doing exactly what you're concerned about.

That, by the way, is why I came to this site. I knew that I'd get this tough treatment here, and I'd be able to check my thinking and find out how it would look to you guys with some honesty.

As to the "prodigy" comment - not hardly. I learned better than most, but mostly because I spent a pretty ridiculous amount of time in each grade. Unlike some styles, our curriculum (aside from some weapons work and a few kicks) is complete at ikkyu, and that's when we start learning to teach, as well. Shodan for us is a full-instructor rank (instructor certification is part of the rank).

I should perhaps be more clear about part of the change (perhaps the larger part). In order to go back to working within the NGAA (both levels above me left the association, though not together, which left me already outside the NGAA some years ago), I'd have to use the basic curriculum of the Classical Techniques (this is what I've referred to as the "testing curriculum"). These are part of what I'm altering, in that I don't teach them until nearly halfway into the full curriculum. Since these are required by the NGAA for testing at each level, I would have to revert to them in order to work within that association. It's not impossible, but probably not my most likely decision, for reasons beyond my basic rationale (there's some politics involved, as you'd expect).

[Aikironin21]

Yes shodan is an instructor rank. Is it a chief instructor, or senior instructor rank? That is what we are getting at here, right? What I don't understand, is how are you going to put a school together, with your own adaptation of Aikido, which from what I'm getting isn't really different, you are just teaching it in a different time table, than your old association. I am sorry if I am missing what exactly you are doing. This is what I am interpreting you're saying though.

With regard to your rank, you can't promote past shodan, unless you train, test and pass, in either your old association or another. Just because you have a change in curriculum, you aren't reinventing Aikido, you are just changing the pace at which it is taught. Making subtle changes to techniques is personalizing them not retooling a whole art. I plan on teaching Kaj and Aikido side by side. I had toyed with the idea of combining and ran into the testing and promotion problem. I am thinking of allowing the students to train with their Kaj ranks since in Aikido, we don't really think about belt colors till later on. My issue is tying the ranks of the two different systems together. I am not inventing a new style, I am teaching to different styles, maybe more, along side each other. The thing is though, as I am running my own school, I will still be training and promoting from my instructors and the schools they represent. My rank comes from them, not from how high my senior student gets. That's why I am not getting how you plan on, at shodan, to start a new school of Aikido, where it's pretty much the same old Aikido, with a few personal twists here and there, and promote people to and beyond shodan, when you yourself are stuck at shodan. Their is nothing wrong with taking on the title of Chief Instructor in your own school. Unless you continue your training and promotion, you can't expect to promote your students to your level or beyond. You, by not promoting anymore, have put a ceiling on how high they can promote. Now by abandoning the testing criteria of your old organization, how do you expect any other organization to recognize the rank of your students? So if you have a first kyu who aspires to be shodan and beyond, he may have no where to go to get there. If you aren't recognized among other associations, then he may have to start over within a given organization in order to reach his goal, which means the time he spent training with you was wasted.

If you want to start your own organization, with curriculum, and standards unique to you,I say more power to you. I think, in order to make a legitimate go of it, you should aim to promote past shodan. I have been training in Aikido since 1994. I am currently a third kyu looking forward to my second. I could probably, if allowed, challenge the shodan test and pass no problem. Maybe even nidan. While training, I show some shodans new stuff all the time. Yes they are instructors, but at shodan, there is so much more out there to learn in Aikido. To think you are complete at firstkyu or shodan is short sighted.

I think I get what you may be saying about the curriculum part. I may be on the same page as you, I don't know. My plan in Aikido and Kaj, is to start from the ground and work up. No rank, no technique at first. Just physical training and basic movement till the students are ready to apply the basic movement into techniques. I mean how do you expect to teach a technique when hamni isn't even second nature yet, and someone's balance is all over the place? Even when you change technique, you are still trying to get them squared away on their feet. Why not spend a few months on movement and ukemi and physical fitness? I don't know if this anything like what you are talking about or not. I see it all the time in classes, where even second and first kyus are severely out of position and as a result they resort to muscle to try and salvage a technique.