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  1. GoshinAiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 1:13pm


     Style: Nihon Goshin Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Thoughts on handling rank

    Since the Bullies are the guys who seem to have the best grip on verifying rank, I thought I'd come to this forum for some thoughts on handling how I refer to my rank.

    About 12 years ago, I received the only grading I've ever gone for (shodan in my primary art). I was prepared to test for nidan, the last technical rank, which would be equivalent to the yondan in his current ranking system (it changed shortly before I left).

    Over the last 5 years I've been reworking the curriculum (another story, and seriously not as ego-based as it seems). In order to avoid confusion with either the original association's ranking OR that used by my former instructor (as I'm not planning to change the name of the art, just the way it is taught and tested), I've opted to use an entirely different ranking structure (4 ranks for students, including black belt, and 2 for instructors).

    My question is simply this: there is no way for me to establish the validity of the rank I'd be using under this new curriculum. What seems more reasonable in this case:

    1. Just go without rank, sort of placing myself outside the ranking structure (this one has a complication with what belt to use, but I could figure that out).
    2. Use the Instructor rank until such time as I have trained someone to that level, then assume the Senior Instructor rank.
    3. Just go ahead and assume the Senior Instructor rank, since I'll be (by default) the most senior instructor in my branch of the system.

    None of these seems like a great answer, so I'm open to alternatives. I don't want to deceive anyone (hence, my hesitation to take on Senior Instructor until I've been teaching the new curriculum a few years), but I do want to be able to explain my rank clearly for prospective students. Obviously, my shodan certificate shows I made that rank, but is relevant neither to my new ranking structure, nor to that of my former instructor, so I really won't have anything that gives real credibility to my rank, other than my skill on the mats and as an instructor.


    I guess the major part of what I'm looking for is some guidance from folks more experienced than me on how to present my own rank in a newly-formed ranking system.



    And Omega, I've read enough of your posts to expect a beating. I waive all rights against trolling from you and any of the other senior folks on here. I promise to weep quietly if you hurt my feelings.
  2. lionknight is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 2:42pm


     Style: Much striking, SAMBO, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoshinAiki View Post
    Since the Bullies are the guys who seem to have the best grip on verifying rank, I thought I'd come to this forum for some thoughts on handling how I refer to my rank.

    About 12 years ago, I received the only grading I've ever gone for (shodan in my primary art). I was prepared to test for nidan, the last technical rank, which would be equivalent to the yondan in his current ranking system (it changed shortly before I left).

    Over the last 5 years I've been reworking the curriculum (another story, and seriously not as ego-based as it seems). In order to avoid confusion with either the original association's ranking OR that used by my former instructor (as I'm not planning to change the name of the art, just the way it is taught and tested), I've opted to use an entirely different ranking structure (4 ranks for students, including black belt, and 2 for instructors).

    My question is simply this: there is no way for me to establish the validity of the rank I'd be using under this new curriculum. What seems more reasonable in this case:

    1. Just go without rank, sort of placing myself outside the ranking structure (this one has a complication with what belt to use, but I could figure that out).
    2. Use the Instructor rank until such time as I have trained someone to that level, then assume the Senior Instructor rank.
    3. Just go ahead and assume the Senior Instructor rank, since I'll be (by default) the most senior instructor in my branch of the system.

    None of these seems like a great answer, so I'm open to alternatives. I don't want to deceive anyone (hence, my hesitation to take on Senior Instructor until I've been teaching the new curriculum a few years), but I do want to be able to explain my rank clearly for prospective students. Obviously, my shodan certificate shows I made that rank, but is relevant neither to my new ranking structure, nor to that of my former instructor, so I really won't have anything that gives real credibility to my rank, other than my skill on the mats and as an instructor.


    I guess the major part of what I'm looking for is some guidance from folks more experienced than me on how to present my own rank in a newly-formed ranking system.



    And Omega, I've read enough of your posts to expect a beating. I waive all rights against trolling from you and any of the other senior folks on here. I promise to weep quietly if you hurt my feelings.
    Do what you want and what makes you feel happy, just don't expect it to mean anything out side of your own system. Be honest about it and then no one really cares.
  3. Tetsumusha is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 2:54pm


     Style: Karate, w/ a side of judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that as long as you're honest about it all and you are actually skilled/trained enough to teach, that's all that really matters. If you give yourself the Senior Instructor ranking there is no problem with that as long as you tell people the same thing you told us about why you have the Senior Instructor rank. It's your school--set up the ranking system however you want, use whatever belts/uniforms you want, teach the curriculum however you want, and just be honest about where it all comes from. If anybody REALLY wants to confirm your rank they can call your previous instructor.
  4. GoshinAiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 4:24pm


     Style: Nihon Goshin Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tetsumusha View Post
    I think that as long as you're honest about it all and you are actually skilled/trained enough to teach, that's all that really matters. If you give yourself the Senior Instructor ranking there is no problem with that as long as you tell people the same thing you told us about why you have the Senior Instructor rank. It's your school--set up the ranking system however you want, use whatever belts/uniforms you want, teach the curriculum however you want, and just be honest about where it all comes from. If anybody REALLY wants to confirm your rank they can call your previous instructor.
    Well, that's sort of the issue. All he'd be able to confirm is a shodan (unless he decided to "translate" it to what it would be under his current system - probably sandan). I know my rank would be meaningless outside my own branch of the art, but I'm pretty much okay with that. The art, itself, is pretty small, so I've spent most of my MA life being used to the fact that my rank meant nothing outside that small community.

    (As a side note, I've considered re-joining the original governing body, where my rank would be a solid shodan and I could easily test up to nidan, so my students' ranks would be recognized by that association. But then I'd have to issue them ranks within that organization's curriculum, which I am reluctant to do.)
  5. Tetsumusha is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 4:32pm


     Style: Karate, w/ a side of judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoshinAiki View Post
    Well, that's sort of the issue. All he'd be able to confirm is a shodan (unless he decided to "translate" it to what it would be under his current system - probably sandan). I know my rank would be meaningless outside my own branch of the art, but I'm pretty much okay with that. The art, itself, is pretty small, so I've spent most of my MA life being used to the fact that my rank meant nothing outside that small community.

    (As a side note, I've considered re-joining the original governing body, where my rank would be a solid shodan and I could easily test up to nidan, so my students' ranks would be recognized by that association. But then I'd have to issue them ranks within that organization's curriculum, which I am reluctant to do.)
    As I said--it's your school, so you should do what you want to do, and you don't necessarily need to be beholden to an organization if you don't agree with their curriculum. If people call your old instructor and he says that he graded you to black belt in 2000, even if he doesn't explain any further, that should be sufficient to confirm that you were trained to a sufficient level to teach, and the implication of a further 12 years of training is that you would be significantly more skilled and knowledgeable than you were when he graded you. If people want clarification on what you have been doing between your black belt test and now, all you have to do is tell them and that should explain why you were not given a higher rank by the governing body of the organization you used to belong to. That seems to be the root of your issue--you seem to be concerned that because you never tested for a rank higher than shodan that people will think you are not qualified to formulate your own curriculum. If it bothers you that much, see if you can get a few people that outrank you to give you an informal exam and even if they don't give you a certificate they can act as references to support your level of skill to others.
  6. GoshinAiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 4:45pm


     Style: Nihon Goshin Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lionknight View Post
    Do what you want and what makes you feel happy, just don't expect it to mean anything out side of your own system. Be honest about it and then no one really cares.
    Well, the reason I specifically asked this question on this forum, is that folks here actually DO care. Understand, it's not that I'm concerned someone would "expose" me - I make no secrets of any of this. However, I'm hoping some of the skeptical minds here will help me find a way to do this that doesn't look shadowy (to them or prospective students). I've seen instructors simply take on ranks they didn't possess nor realistically have any right to. I know my skills (both technical and teaching) are solid, so I know my rank would be appropriate, even if I took on the Senior Instructor rank, but I don't want to end up in a mess later having to do some 'splaining to clear things up, when starting out properly would have avoided confusion.

    I'm actually hoping some of the folks on the MABS section will see these posts and give me their advice, since they're the ones who most likely have had to figure out where they draw the line between "fraudulent rank" and "rank in a new system".

    I could avoid all of this by using a title like "Soke", but there are two issues with that:
    1. It feels all ego-y to me. :)
    2. I'd need to find a new name for my branch of the style to avoid the appearance that I'm trying to take ownership of the entire art. Making up a new name is just a mess I'd rather not get into (and also feels all ego-y).
  7. Permalost is online now
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 4:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Can you be a little more concrete about your original art and what you've modified as your own style?
  8. CrackFox is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 5:07pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ask yourself why you need the different ranks. If the answer is just because then that's not really a good enough answer in my books.

    Do you have a need to distinguish between the abilities of a load of your students who don't know each other? That would be a good reason. Rank should be a tool, not a goal. Aside from the ego thing, it's a load of bureaucracy that you don't need.

    Just keep it simple - make yourself the lowest rank that will put you above everyone else in your system. If/when you expand to the stage where you genuinely need it, pop yourself up one rank and open the lower ranks for your students.
  9. slamdunc is online now
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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 5:29pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, CMA & American Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by CrackFox View Post
    Rank should be a tool, not a goal. Aside from the ego thing, it's a load of bureaucracy that you don't need.
    I've heard this said before and couldn't agree more. Since martial arts is plagued with egos, politics and bureaucracy, some things are unavoidable.
    My instructor is a sixth dan and has been such since 1985. A guy that I trained with under this same instructor earned his third dan legitimately. Since that time, he has convened panels of (his own) students, and they have promoted him to a seventh dan. IMHO, this reeks of cross-ranking and quid pro quo internal politics.
    I guess it is nice to have a piece of paper to hang on one's wall and a bunch of stripes on the tip of one's belt if someone has truly earned it. What I find to be the case now is that what really matters when you are on the mat with someone, or even more importantly, when you are forced to use yous skills in the real world.
    Last edited by slamdunc; 5/07/2012 5:31pm at . Reason: Paragraphs, man!
  10. GoshinAiki is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/07/2012 5:44pm


     Style: Nihon Goshin Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The art is Nihon Goshin Aikido (a direct derivative of Daito Ryu). My changes are almost entirely about how it is taught -- how the curriculum is defined (this is very specific in the version taught within the NGAA). In this change, I've altered some techniques to better incorporate the "aiki" principles (as opposed to the jujutsu versions).

    See, I don't even really consider my changes as establishing a different "style" - it's just a different approach to the art. I dunno...maybe I'm just being too picky on that point, though.
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