What self defense tactic works?

**j67ss** · Posted On: 5/01/2012 3:31pm

Hello everyone, just got here from the Newbietown forums. I've read a few threads and there seems to be a lot of smack talk about how some TMA's are outdated and don't work in a real street fight. I want to ask of the fellow LEO's here what MA do they study and how effective has it been on the field. I'm a LEO myself and looking to study a MA that will help me defend myself, my fellow LEO's my family or public. I understand that there is a debate between sport vs. real life mechanics at this site in various threads. There are plenty of moments when you must be face to face with someone much bigger than you in confined spaces where there are innocent bystanders around you and you must open a can of whip *ss on somebody and their friends. You just never know who you will come across that is running from the law because they just beat their wife to a pulp or maybe they have a warrant for murder. LEO's you know the type and where I am getting at. Going home at the end of your shift is the goal.

There are plenty of schools here in my area that offer TMA's and plenty of MMA gyms. Here are some I have come across in my town. Feel free to comment on any of them. Thank you all.

Judo/ Jujutsu
Bujutsu Freeform Combat/ Jeet Kune Do
Bujutsu Mixed Martial Arts (M.M.A.)
No-Gi Submission Grappling
Kickboxing

Sasori Seibutsu no Kigen Ryu:
Go-Dai Bujutsu
Aikijutsu
Jujutsu
Kenjutsu
Kobujutsu
Mokuso

Takazaki Ryu:
Aikijutsu / Aikido
Jujutsu
Yamabushi Gekken
Kenjutsu / Kendo
Iaijutsu / Iaido
Kobujutsu

Tachibana Ryu:
Aikijutsu
Jujutsu
Yamabushi Gekken / Kenjutsu
Iaijutsu / Iaido
Naginatajutsu
Kobujutsu
Mokuso

Aikido
Many of MMA gyms
Many offering BJJ
Kung Fu San Soo - A Master ouf of Dave Hopkins association.

Any information would be helpfull.

Thanks again!

**Petter** · Posted On: 5/01/2012 3:42pm

Something with aliveness. Check out Matt Thornton's aliveness video.

If you're a LEO, you'll presumably want something that's effective but affords you a spectrum of levels of force. Judo osaekomiwaza -- pinning techniques -- sound like a good idea to me.

I have a few more thoughts linked in my sig.

Edit: But my sig is for some reason not showing up. This:

[ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
[ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
“The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”

**slamdunc** · Posted On: 5/01/2012 3:49pm

Originally Posted by j67ss

I want to ask of the fellow LEO's here what MA do they study and how effective has it been on the field. I'm a LEO myself and looking to study a MA that will help me defend myself, my fellow LEO's my family or public. I understand that there is a debate between sport vs. real life mechanics at this site in various threads.

Welcome!!
You need to check with your training officer and find out what type of defensive tactics are approved by your department (that was just my little disclaimer LOL). Seriously, you need to find out what is acceptable before committing to training outside your job. Choose something with ground aspects, small joint manipulation, footwork and blocking. You can adapt most styles and as long as you can articulate in your use of force report the technique you used was acquired in your training, you should be good. When it comes down to it, do whatever you have to do in order to win and go home at the end of your shift.

**j67ss** · Posted On: 5/01/2012 10:15pm

[QUOTE=Petter;2687435]Something with aliveness. Check out Matt Thornton's aliveness video.

If you're a LEO, you'll presumably want something that's effective but affords you a spectrum of levels of force. Judo osaekomiwaza -- pinning techniques -- sound like a good idea to me.

I have a few more thoughts linked in my sig.

Edit: But my sig is for some reason not showing up.

Thank you for the prompt response. You have some great points about aliveness. I agree that you need to practice like your gonna fight. If you are not used to resistance or someone changing things up you will not be prepared for when the real deal goes down. I saw your blog and I did read up on it. Great stuff! Many good points. I also saw Matt Thornton videos on youtube. I like his thinking and his approach on fighting. He is big on ground fighting seems like. But understands that someone may also need some type of stand up. Just like what I'm looking for. Again thanks for the information. I'll keep this thread updated for when I decide what to study.

As for what is recommended from my agency, well I checked and they pretty much approve anything as long as we have something under our belt. I just want to be well rounded. Something with strikes and ground game in case it goes to the ground as fights usually do. But also this is not only for my work place, thinking about it, it should also be effective for the time I am at the park with my family or at a Bar or maybe inside an airline?

**DaTedBear** · Posted On: 5/02/2012 10:59am

slamdunc had it right. If you received defensive tactics training at your academy, you got the bare bones. Maybe a little PPCT thrown in, for good measure. Most agencies have liability issues and do not always provide adequate follow up training for DT, since it is usually not covered under mandatory annual CEU or firearms requirements. Suggest you keep in mind that any conflict you engage on the street is a gun fight and be acutely aware of your strong side when attempting any entry for takedown or while grappling. Going to the ground is sometimes unavoidable, but is extremely dangerous for a LEO.

**slamdunc** · Posted On: 5/02/2012 3:39pm

Originally Posted by DaTedBear

Suggest you keep in mind that any conflict you engage on the street is a gun fight and be acutely aware of your strong side when attempting any entry for takedown or while grappling. Going to the ground is sometimes unavoidable, but is extremely dangerous for a LEO.

Absolutely, I left out weapon retention, and it is very necessary, as well. I hope the OP was reading between the lines in my initial reply. Use whatever you have to use to come out on top, but make sure that the techniques you utilize on the job are (sort of) in line with your approved training. All of my use of force reports include the PPCT tactic that I ended up using to bring the subject under control. It may have ended in a straight arm bar take-down or a transport wrist-lock, but the 'distraction technique' used to transition into the PPCT stuff is my own.
As DaTedBear said, be mindful when you go to the ground. I watched video of myself in a ground situation once, and it scared the hell out of me. At the time, I thought I was doing something tactically sound, and when I saw the film, I exposed my Taser and firearm, without any way to defend them. Fortunately, I got to learn from the film instead of it being used in training as a Don't Ever Do Dumb **** Like This.

**j67ss** · Posted On: 5/02/2012 8:36pm

Originally Posted by slamdunc

Absolutely, I left out weapon retention, and it is very necessary, as well. I hope the OP was reading between the lines in my initial reply. Use whatever you have to use to come out on top, but make sure that the techniques you utilize on the job are (sort of) in line with your approved training. All of my use of force reports include the PPCT tactic that I ended up using to bring the subject under control. It may have ended in a straight arm bar take-down or a transport wrist-lock, but the 'distraction technique' used to transition into the PPCT stuff is my own.
As DaTedBear said, be mindful when you go to the ground. I watched video of myself in a ground situation once, and it scared the hell out of me. At the time, I thought I was doing something tactically sound, and when I saw the film, I exposed my Taser and firearm, without any way to defend them. Fortunately, I got to learn from the film instead of it being used in training as a Don't Ever Do Dumb **** Like This.

Well said brother, weapon retention is always top priority! We always have that in mind. As for going to the ground it's sometimes unavoidable as previously said. Hopefully strikes and joint manipulation will do the trick but in that rare instance that you are rushed and tackled, ground work is a must. The local San Soo school offers San Soo as a close quarter combative with ground work. I would need to swing by and look at several of their classes to see how "alive" their workouts are. But I'm still open minded for anything. Thanks again for the replies from everyone so far. Really do appreciate it!

**Killbot** · Posted On: 5/03/2012 9:27am

I'm not a LEO, but I help train a lot of local COs. They swear by jits and I throw in a bunch of Kali and all the dirty fighting I know. One of our coaches is a cop and he does nothing but BJJ. I can't suggest FMA enough. And train it to a skillful level or its useless. It works in well with a lot of the basic stuff you get at the academy on placement, retention and control.

**slamdunc** · Posted On: 5/03/2012 9:40am

Originally Posted by Killbot

I can't suggest FMA enough. And train it to a skillful level or its useless. It works in well with a lot of the basic stuff you get at the academy on placement, retention and control.

That goes without saying and I totally agree. Without continuous, active training, it is only a hobby. It really matters when you life depends on it.

**Devil** · Posted On: 5/03/2012 10:19am

I'm not a LEO. My best friend is and we spend a lot of time discussing his encounters with shitheads. He's a Sheriff's Deputy in a rural county. He's been somewhat involved with martial arts since he was a kid, having trained in places with varying degrees of quality. He's done quite a bit of hard sparring when training standup. He's a very inexperienced grappler. He knows how to apply basic chokes, etc but has very little positional skill and would get wrecked by a salty white belt in a BJJ class.

Having said that, he has done an outstanding job of handling himself in quite a few very serious physical encounters. He's got a little technique, but that isn't the biggest factor. His aggressiveness is the biggest factor.

Like I said, he's in a rural county. He rides alone. His backup can be 20 minutes away at any time. Every time he answers a call he has to be the baddest ************ on the scene when he arrives. Period. Otherwise, he'll get eaten alive.

Recently he got a call out in the country. It was a house party with about 50 drunk Mexicans. (Don't even start on the "Why they gotta' be Mexicans" ****.) Cause they were fucking Mexican. That's why.

When he got there everyone pointed him to the backyard and said there was a crazy fucker back there who was trying to beat everyone up. He asked if he was armed. They said no. So he heads back there. As soon as he rounds the corner he's face to face with a dude who weighs about 280lb. My buddy is 170.

He looked at the guy and sensed instantly that he was going to fight. So without hesitation he blasted him as hard as he could and exploded the dude's nose like a grape. It had been raining. The guy hit the ground so hard water splashed in my friend's face when he landed. He jumped on him knees first and proceeded to cuff him.

That may sound excessive and out of line, but what would you do if it were you? You can be the wolf or the sheep. It's your choice. Fortunately, he works for a Sheriff who understands the danger and makes sure his deputies' first priority is coming home. If there's fallout after the fact, they'll deal with it then.