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  1. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 4:05pm

    Join us... or die
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lindz View Post
    Is coarsing an Irish spelling variation on coursing?
    Only in the same way the spilling is an Irish variation on spelling.
  2. crappler is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 4:56pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Epic lol. Exactly as I predicted.




    I see you don't understand the concept of the money supply.



    Money is a commodity it doesn't have a fixed value.


    So we should always define capitalism by sweatshops and child labour? However, we should never define communism by Gulags, people being murdered because they wear glasses and ideologically induced starvation?

    30 million people died because of the Great leap forward.

    4 million people died because of Holodmor.

    No capitalist system has ever murdered people for having the temerity to wear glasses.



    Those things really did happen and really were produced by Communism.
    15 million children die of starvation every year, and it would seem most of them reside in "capitalist" countries. They are no less dead than anyone killed by what deem as "communism". If you are coming from a grand Orwellian tradition of anti-communism a la Hitchens, I am hearing you but I doubt any of them were ever singing the praises of capitalist hegemony which you appear to me. Correct me if I am wrong. I do so adore your blog and you.
    "We often joke -- and we really wish it were a joke -- that you will only encounter two basic problems with your 'self-defense' training.
    1) That it doesn't work
    2) That it does work"
    -Animal MacYoung
  3. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 5:21pm


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

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    Quote Originally Posted by crappler View Post
    15 million children die of starvation every year, and it would seem most of them reside in "capitalist" countries. They are no less dead than anyone killed by what deem as "communism". If you are coming from a grand Orwellian tradition of anti-communism a la Hitchens, I am hearing you but I doubt any of them were ever singing the praises of capitalist hegemony which you appear to me. Correct me if I am wrong. I do so adore your blog and you.
    I guess we are just off topic again. Oh well. The numbers you mention are horrifying but a quick look at statistics seems to indicate 98% of this is in developing countries. This does not get capitalism off the hook though because capitalist countries have developed a lot of wealth that in turn results in a lot of influence over other countries. I consider all human life as sacred but I don't think it is useful to compare what happens in these countries to what happened in many communist countries. I assume we want a better world so understanding the difference is important.
  4. judoka_uk is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 5:23pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by crappler View Post
    15 million children die of starvation every year, and it would seem most of them reside in "capitalist" countries.
    In 1970 the Earth's population was roughly 3.5 billion, today its 6 billion. In 1970 37% of the population in the developing world was malnourished, today its only 16%.

    What planet is your brain inhabiting in which poverty is enhanced by capitalism? Please compare the lot of the poor in the 16th century to the lot of the poor in the 21st century.

    Free markets and capitalism has lifted billions of people out of poverty and into wealth.

    Quote Originally Posted by crappler View Post
    They are no less dead than anyone killed by what deem as "communism".
    The state murdered people under communism. It was planned in advance, detailed and then executed.

    Free markets have never designated a class or race of people undesirable and then lined them up and shot them in the back of the head. Only the collectivist state has done that.


    Quote Originally Posted by crappler View Post
    If you are coming from a grand Orwellian tradition of anti-communism a la Hitchens,
    Orwellian tradition of anti-communism? Are you high? Orwell and Hitchens were both socialists they're about as opposed to communism as Bll Gates is opposed to IT monopolies.

    Quote Originally Posted by crappler View Post
    I am hearing you but I doubt any of them were ever singing the praises of capitalist hegemony which you appear to me.
    History has proven there is only one route to social freedom, that is through economic freedom. The only system so far devised by man to ensure economic freedom is capitalism. The failures of capitalism are almost always a result of the state co-opting capitalism to its own ends in a conspiracy against the market and the people.

    Quote Originally Posted by crappler View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong. I do so adore your blog and you.
    I refer you to my comments to Jonny Cache, if you're so immature as to be unable to respect my credentials as a martial artist without being prejudiced by your condemnation of my political views. Then the fault and immaturity lies with you, not me.
  5. Grub is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/18/2012 11:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    Grub,

    Please start a new thread about Scandinavian socialism. I have heard great things about it. Seriously, have not heard any counter opinion. Most came from people who do not live there. Only one exception to that.

    Thanks
    Hey, I'll be away for a couple of weeks, so I don't want to start something I can't keep up with. So i'm going to reply to you here before I go. If you want to communicate around this with me send me a PM and I'll get back to you. Everyone who's not interested in this please excuse the wall of text.

    First let me say that Scandinavia is not a bad place to live, considering many places in the world. It's just that it's nothing special either, when comparing it to other western countries.

    Consumer purchasing power is not particularly high versus other western states. Yes, you earn more, but prices for goods and expenses are proportionally higher too. Tolls for offshore goods are high, and the semi-regulated market corporations very often work in highly monopolistic fashions with two or three chains dominating the markets and engaging in price fixing.

    The workers unions are a parody of what they once were. Small scale private enterprise is extremely difficult with loads of regulations, expenses and fees that make competition problematic.

    The Scandinavian taxation systems are very hard to understand for outsiders (and even insiders to some extent.) With all taxes, tolls, VATs and fees, both hidden and visible, it's not at all uncommon for an average worker to have well over 50% of what he earns end up going to the state.

    Well and good that, as long as you get your moneys worth in return. Many Scandinavians are very unsure of this, and there is an undercurrent of severe disgruntlement.

    For instance, in Norway the health care system is stressed to the max, with the latest polls showing public doctors spending on average 3 mins with each patient. Deductible costs for doctor visits are prohibitive for average people. Dental care is privatized and very expensive, leading to general dental neglect. Waiting years in line for surgery is not unheard of. People who can afford it pay for private health care. On the plus side, emergency aid is very good.

    Unemployment numbers are fudged, and it's getting hard for natives to compete with foreign workers who can live well on less pay in their home countries. It's not uncommon for kids to stay in school racking up loans well after they should have gone into the work market. A large portion of the work force is on welfare or works in the public sector, both consuming much resources and producing few.

    And here lies much of the problem. Scandinavia lives on a wealth bubble from past glories. Most of the industry is long gone. There is little real wealth generation and high resource consumption. Things are going to change a lot in Scandinavia, for better or worse.

    Maybe we'll become travellers, hehe.

    Oh, and a final thing. Remember that just because communism and socialism constantly fails this doesn't validate capitalism in any way. It's not either-or.
  6. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2012 11:49am


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    Grub,
    Thanks. Sounds balanced and thoughtful.

    Mike
  7. crappler is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2012 10:30pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The state murdered people under communism. It was planned in advance, detailed and then executed.

    Free markets have never designated a class or race of people undesirable and then lined them up and shot them in the back of the head. Only the collectivist state has done that.


    I'm a utilitarian in this regard. I just count bodies. I worry more about indifference than people dedicated to my murder, though I do worry about that, don't get me wrong.

    Orwellian tradition of anti-communism? Are you high? Orwell and Hitchens were both socialists they're about as opposed to communism as Bll Gates is opposed to IT monopolies.

    You absolutely must be joking. I cannot explain how you can read either of this authors and come away thinking they weren't dedicated to criticism of totalitarian governments, which often came in the form of socialism. Can you seriously sit there and mention Stalinist genocide and in the same breath pretend Orwell supported such a thing? Who is fucking high?

    History has proven there is only one route to social freedom, that is through economic freedom. The only system so far devised by man to ensure economic freedom is capitalism. The failures of capitalism are almost always a result of the state co-opting capitalism to its own ends in a conspiracy against the market and the people

    Yes we are certainly all free to work our **** jobs, dream about hitting it big, and believe that Horatio Alger bullshit about rags to riches, but it is and always has been bullshit. So much of where we are is the result of luck. Not intelligence, or hard work, or skill. Dumb luck. The world is full of people who were born on third base and think they hit triple. History has shown again and again that unfettered capitalism offers the vast majority of humanity nothing but misery. This is the takeaway from the latest financial disaster, but the lesson is going to be lost on the true believers.

    You would think that after the government bailed out all of the so-called capitalists in the last big shitstorm at least some of you would be a little bit cowed. Instead it's the same bullshit, warmed over, served on a platter.

    An incidentally there was no sarcasm when it comes to your blog. Seriously. I love it.
    "We often joke -- and we really wish it were a joke -- that you will only encounter two basic problems with your 'self-defense' training.
    1) That it doesn't work
    2) That it does work"
    -Animal MacYoung
  8. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/19/2012 10:49pm


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    Crappler,

    I hear you about unfettered capitalism. What about "fettered" capitalism? Luck playing a role in capitalism is not a flaw, it is a feature. If an idiot stumbles into a providing a great product everyone needs and is rewarded that is ok. The "I will eventually get rich so no rules" is idiotic but rules limiting the power of businessmen and the very rich seems to work well. The US had quite a run with regulated finance at the root of our capitalist society. The rules had to be removed to get the collapse.
  9. The Question is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2012 11:36pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Epic lol. Exactly as I predicted.




    I see you don't understand the concept of the money supply.



    Money is a commodity it doesn't have a fixed value.


    So we should always define capitalism by sweatshops and child labour? However, we should never define communism by Gulags, people being murdered because they wear glasses and ideologically induced starvation?

    30 million people died because of the Great leap forward.

    4 million people died because of Holodmor.

    No capitalist system has ever murdered people for having the temerity to wear glasses.



    Those things really did happen and really were produced by Communism.
    I don't fucking understand something here. How is a 'Communist' State's decision to murder 30 million people a criticism of communism. Communism as I understand it doesn't include anything that fucking allows murder.

    Isn't it akin to saying I practice Aikido instead of Karate because no Aikidoka has ever become schizophrenic and shot 14 people in the motherfucking face, whereas karateka have?

    The Great Leap forward was just poor execution: 'coercion, terror, and systematic violence were the very foundation of the Great Leap Forward" and it "motivated one of the most deadly mass killings of human history." (wiki)

    So why is that a criticism of communism?
    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - joe
    being a dick with skill is only marginally better than being a dick without skill.
  10. The Question is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/19/2012 11:48pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, capitalism offends my sensibilities. It really just doesn't fucking make sense on a level. Life isn't 'fair', but capitalism is fucking outright cheating.

    If I have some money, I can do **** all, and hire other people to work for me, and live life comfortable. These people can do awesome things, but will reap none of the benefits from it.

    Kary Mullis discovered PCR technology which is now used in every biochem lab in the world, pretty much. He did this while working at Cetus. Fucking game changing discovery, **** that was far out of our reach was now suddenly at arms length. Bam. Just like that. Motherfuckers don't understand how crucial that **** was.

    Mullis is working for Cetus, and in accordance with his contract, everything he discovers while working for them, is theirs. Cetus give Mullis a 10,000 bonus, and sells the PCR technology to Hoffmann LaRoche for 300,000,000.

    That is fucked up.

    Because Cetus's brass now buys 2 more summer homes and a couple of mercedes'es or whatever the **** rich people do, while Mullis has to continue to plug away in the name of science and whatever the **** else motivates him. He won the noble prize and got fame and ****, but that is still fucked up.

    Why does the company get all the money? Because they provided the money and resources? No amount of money or resources could have produced what Mullis produced. Still, the company reaps all the benefits just Mullis could not fund his own research, and needed a job to feed his kids or pay for liquor or whatever the **** scientists did in that era.

    So if I get there first, and have money, then people who don't have money are my fucking slaves. And the only way to not be a slave is to own money, and enslave/hire other people.

    That's fucked up.

    It would be less fucked up if instead of Hoffmann-LaRoche getting 300,000,000 , that money was given to the government (ie, the goveernment owed such companies). Then they could build some roads with the 40% that was left after the higher up officials embezzled the **** out of everything.

    That's not as fucked up.

    I don't wanna be a slave.
    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - joe
    being a dick with skill is only marginally better than being a dick without skill.
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