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  1. mrhiggins38112 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/14/2014 3:01pm


     Style: kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Shotkan throat chop

    I have a question for the Shotokan practitioners. Is Shotokan karate a sport karate, with no dirty moves, or is it a self defense karate with dirty moves like throat punches and groin kicks. The reason I'm asking is because I want to know what to look for when I visit the school. I don't mind training in sport karate if that's what it's made for. But I don't want to train at a place that trains a self defense form of karate and takes out all the dirty moves and makes it a sport karate when it was originally invented for self defense if you know what I mean. Wherever I go I want to learn the full art. I have muay thai class Saturday, but I wanted to visit a shotkan place before then, in case I might change my mind. If I don't like the Shotokan place, then it's the muay thai place all the way.
  2. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/14/2014 4:36pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't want to train at a place that trains a self defense form of karate and takes out all the dirty moves and makes it a sport karate when it was originally invented for self defense if you know what I mean.
    Well what you just described here is a pretty brief summary of how Shotokan was founded, although there are those within the art who delve into its older roots.

    I'd say check out both schools either way.
  3. Tetsumusha is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2014 8:55am


     Style: Karate, w/ a side of judo

    3
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't tell you what you should or shouldn't practice, but it sounds like you want to know a bit of history regarding Shotokan. Here is what I know:

    Itosu Anko is considered to be the founder of modern karate. He altered his Shuri-Te/Shorin-Ryu to be safer for school children on Okinawa and easier to teach to large groups of people in a military setting. Funakoshi learned this school-safe/large-group version of karate, and was sent to Japan as a representative of Okinawan karate because of his fluency with Japanese language and culture. The Japanese believed that their martial arts (jujutsu/judo, kendo, etc.) were superior fighting arts, so they didn't feel any need to worry about the practical applications of karate--for them, the physical and personal development aspects of training were good enough. Over time, they altered the kata and techniques to be more physically demanding, and they adapted kendo rules to form a long-distance, point-focused competitive sparring ruleset to go along with that.
  4. Moenstah is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2014 12:52pm


     Style: 空手 / &#2147

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I found the book "shotokan, a precise history" an excellent read <- just saying as no one had mentioned it yet


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  5. User Redacted is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2014 10:47pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jujutsu, Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrhiggins38112 View Post
    I have a question for the Shotokan practitioners. Is Shotokan karate a sport karate, with no dirty moves, or is it a self defense karate with dirty moves like throat punches and groin kicks. The reason I'm asking is because I want to know what to look for when I visit the school. I don't mind training in sport karate if that's what it's made for. But I don't want to train at a place that trains a self defense form of karate and takes out all the dirty moves and makes it a sport karate when it was originally invented for self defense if you know what I mean. Wherever I go I want to learn the full art. I have muay thai class Saturday, but I wanted to visit a shotkan place before then, in case I might change my mind. If I don't like the Shotokan place, then it's the muay thai place all the way.
    Out of curiosity, why would it bother you to not be learning the complete art, but not bother you to learn an art that was originally sport?
  6. ChokeAJudoka is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2014 12:34pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    User Redacted, your question is a bit confusing. Are you suggesting that Muay Thai "was originally sport?" Or are you talking about karate styles?
  7. mrtnira is online now

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    Posted On:
    5/31/2014 9:46pm


     Style: Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Masatoshi Nakayama was the chief instructor for Japanese Karate Association (JKA) for many years before his death. He published a six volume set on "Practical Karate." It takes the reader through various self-defense problems and how to respond using techniques in the inventory of standard karate movements. The six volume set has been reprinted and remains available through book sellers like Amazon.

    Also, karate was taught at the Japanese Imperial Army Nakano Spy School, because it could be internalized effectively by trainees going through their one year course. The Nakano worked with Aiki-jutsu (or Aiki-bujutsu) for a time, but it was more difficult for trainees to learn within the year training period with also learning how to be a spy or saboteur, so karate was selected to be taught instead.

    Also, in the 1970s and 1980s, there was a shift in Soviet Union and East German training for special troops toward an incorporation of karate-style techniques, while keeping many established jiu-jitsu (jujutsu) techniques. Units with a law enforcement role tended to keep more jiu-jitsu techniques because of the need to subdue and transport prisoners; shock units incorporated more karate-style techniques because of the need to overcome resistance with immediate results on the field of combat.

    The quality of the course you are taking may be the most important question to answer.
  8. kdawgious is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/13/2014 7:19pm


     Style: Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by mrhiggins38112 View Post
    I have a question for the Shotokan practitioners. Is Shotokan karate a sport karate, with no dirty moves, or is it a self defense karate with dirty moves like throat punches and groin kicks. The reason I'm asking is because I want to know what to look for when I visit the school. I don't mind training in sport karate if that's what it's made for. But I don't want to train at a place that trains a self defense form of karate and takes out all the dirty moves and makes it a sport karate when it was originally invented for self defense if you know what I mean. Wherever I go I want to learn the full art. I have muay thai class Saturday, but I wanted to visit a shotkan place before then, in case I might change my mind. If I don't like the Shotokan place, then it's the muay thai place all the way.
    I'm not even sure I understand your question entirely, but considering I do have some experience with Shotokan I'll try and answer as best I can. Shotokan, today's incarnation of it anyway, is primarily a dueling, competition oriented karate style. There's really no question about.

    That being said, if you're looking for effective self-defense, stop looking for styles with throat punches/chops and groin strikes. Look for a school that will teach you how to effectively punch and kick, worry about the targets after you've learned how to throw effective techniques. Any good Shotokan school, generally those affiliated with any of the JKA splinter groups will fulfill that requirement, although there are always exceptions to that statement.

    If you have any interest in the "form" of a martial art, then Shotokan would be a better option, if you want to learn to fight Muay Thai would probably be a significantly better option. My two cents on the issue.
  9. kitkatninja is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2014 4:41am


     Style: TSD, Karate & Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It really does depend on the implementation of the art/style. I've trained at organisations where it is sports orientated where everything is geared up towards the sporting aspects (points, looking clean, etc).

    I've also trained at organisations where they teach you the same techniques but the aim "isn't to get the most points", where you'll look "scrappy" (I tend not to use phrases like "dirty techniques" as you're not in a sport situation).
  10. kdawgious is online now

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    Posted On:
    7/14/2014 5:02am


     Style: Shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kitkatninja View Post
    I've also trained at organisations where they teach you the same techniques but the aim "isn't to get the most points", where you'll look "scrappy" (I tend not to use phrases like "dirty techniques" as you're not in a sport situation).
    I don't necessarily disagree that the techniques are "dirtier" when you aren't learning strictly for the sake of competition, it just make me cringe when "dirty technique" is only used to describe the deadly eye gouge, throat chop and groin crush. Scrappy is definitely a much better descriptor, I'll be using that from now on.

    That being said, the organization I train with puts a lot of emphasis on effective impact, similar to the training style of the KWF, even in competition seeing. This typically results in a lot of our guys not being able to hack it in WKF-style competition...c'est la vie.

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