Shin Tai Ryu

[It is Fake]

Hellogentlemen,
Mark has never claimed to have trained in all the Japanese traditions mentioned in his website, or to offer the complete curriculum or a graduation in the traditional Japanese schools. Do not twist his words or misinterpret his intentions, as so often is done in this discussion.

Please point to the actual misinterpretations and not your hurt feelings..

He offers merely an introduction to a few traditions in a workshop or seminar. He just wants to offer people, who do not have the opportunity to go to train in Japan, a chance to get to know a few techniques that are trained in certain traditional schools. This is not uncommon in Japan in schools that do not have a direct lineage

Citation for this claim please.

to a traditional Japanese school, but as purists and keepers of the Japanese culture you obviously know better than the Japanese people themselves.

Sadly, you might not want to assume no one posting has trained extensively in Japanese arts, do not know Japanese culture and have not trained in Japan.

In Japan by the way, there are no such discussions where they put so much filth on the internet. Japanese people are more polite and have more respect for each others skills. My advice: you should make an example out of this and act in a true budo spirit.

Really? Are you sure? This right here tells me you are a Japanophile and have little experience with actual JAPANESE CULTURE. If you are Japanese I'm actually embarrassed for you.

Mark does not claim to be a Japanese tradition, so he is free to do whatever he thinks is helpful to his students. He always does this with great respect for, and knowledge of, the Japanese culture.

Proof please. If you do not know something you should not teach it even if you are being respectful.

Shin Tai Ryu is a Dutch tradition in kobudo style, Mark does not pretend otherwise as is wrongfully suggested.

Proof needs to be obtained, by you, to back up your assertion.

You may ask who Mark is to offer such introductions to traditional Japanese schools and kobudo, well, first of all he is a respected member of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai. Like top-managers or top-sporters recognize each others talents and spirit, so do the true great kobudo practitioners.

Logical fallacy.

Everybody who has ever seen Mark in action or spoke to him, knows he is a true grandmaster.

Another logical fallacy.

And this is proven bij his membership: you have to be an excellent practitioner of kobudo to be invited to become a member and it is a great honour.

Another logical fallacy.

Mark has the skills, after 40 years of intensive training and study of the Japanese traditional martial arts, including training since 1986 in one of the oldest martial traditions in Japan; Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu, to offer many kinds of teachings.

Logical fallacy.

That you think he may not do so, that is your opninion, not everybody thinks so, especially the people that matter (see below).

Logical fallacy.

work is certainly not an insult to Japanese culture or traditional martial arts as is suggested in this discussion, on the contrary. Many Japanese people recognize his excellent work, like the headmasters of Sho Sho ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu, and the Japanese ambassador in the Netherlands, who were present at the opening of his beautiful new dojo. The Queen of the Netherlands recently decorated Mark as Knight in the Order of Oranje Nassau for his good works

LOL.

in contribution to the Japanese culture in the Netherlands and Europe, and the contribution to the friendship between the Netherlands and Japan. Our Queen is a good friend of the Japanese Emperor and his wife, and would never do anything to harm the Japanese culture, or would give such an important decoration to somebody who does this.

Logical fallacy.

About the Shin Tai Ryu (do not confuse this with the Shintai Ryu, and there does not exist a traditional Japanese school with this name): it is a tradition from teacher to student. The curriculum of the Shin Tai Ryu, which Mark has perfected, has his roots in the previous teachings. Maybe it does not fulfill your definition of a tradition, the Japanese grandmasters of the Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu do not have a problem with this.

You OBVIOUSLY do not understand the definition of traditional.

Mark is a really friendly, generous, down-to-earth man who has dedicated 40 years of his life to the study and teachings of Japanese martial arts and Chinese philosophy. His skills and contribution to the Japanese culture in Europe are recognized by many important people in Japan, the Netherlands and different European countries. So in order to find out the value of your opinions I ask you: what are your credentials? What are your contributions to the Japanese martial arts and culture?

My fallacy meter broke with this paragraph.

Withfriendly greetings
Student ofShin Tai Ryu

Rants are never friendly. Get some facts or STFU.

[backatya]

WTF, the Dutch are 'beknackt', they think that mr. Sterke is a Dutch Knight! LOL, I was thinking that this post was coming to its end... Not sure if the Dutch Queen ever spoke about mr. Sterke when she was visiting the Japanese Empero! This thread is getting better and better!

I'm confused about that whole Dutch knight thing now LOL!

[Moenstah]

WTF, the Dutch are 'beknackt', they think that mr. Sterke is a Dutch Knight! LOL, I was thinking that this post was coming to its end... Not sure if the Dutch Queen ever spoke about mr. Sterke when she was visiting the Japanese Empero! This thread is getting better and better!

I'm confused about that whole Dutch knight thing now LOL!

This isn't ymas, take stupidity somewhere else. kthxbai

[DerAuslander]

He has a skinny neck.

[Vieux Normand]

Did we hurt your feelings, Mr. Student?

What we appear to have here is yet another person who thinks "Japanese culture" is some kind of static product, marketable to people outside of Japan which--like some virus--can be "transmitted" in some mythical "pure form".

In other words, yet another person who has never actually lived in Japan, but goes on and on about whatever "Japanese-culture" product he's received third-hand (at best).

Nothing new to see here. Move on.

[backatya]

This isn't ymas, take stupidity somewhere else. kthxbai

Sorry had to post it.

[FYT]

We didn't answer the Questions?

a group who seems to teach a large amount of ko-ryu.
http://www.shintairyu.nl/NAvTK%20%28English%29.html
http://www.shintairyu.nl/Koryu%20Buj...webversie).pdf

PDF quote:
In this table all martial arts which are available at the Oranda Bujutsu Gakkai and/or
Shin tai ryu:

Only what's listed under Shin Tai Ryu: is what is taught AT Shin Tai Ryu, (And Sterke is not the only teacher thus other "specialists")

From what's listed under Oranda Bujutsu Gakkai only Sho sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu is taught by Shin Tai Ryu teachers.

The others are taught by OTHER schools IN the "Oranda Bujutsu Gakkai!"

A league of independent schools gathered under a name of which Sterke happens to be director.

and who provide interrelated workshops to each other.

Beyond that the list simply publishes the names of schools and their arts for educational purposes.

Beyond that referring to the 2nd page starting with: Some extra information on Koryu kobudo and Shin kobudo

Well, according to a apparently no longer active affiliated dojo transl.: The academy organises on a regular basis training/seminars in the old martial arts of Japan on the name 'koryu bu jitsu [sic] sensho' and are meant for anyone who's interested. There is a choice from 24 traditional schools (including brochures) and 9 shin t'ai ryu kata.*

This indicates that they pretend you can get traditional training from their long list of koryu, from which at least 3 so far in this thread have been identified as being of poor quality, or no affiliation.

http://www.shintairyu.nl/Koryu%20Buj...webversie).pdf

Shin Tai Ryu has Shin Tai Ryu as its program and 5 styles have been listed as complete programs through the Gakkai.
The rest are workshops.

Providing training/seminars (in other words workshops a tip of an iceberg) by the Gakkai (group of schools) for those interested.

Quality is based on opinions, but a workshop is a workshop.

About the Sho sho ryu, there is a nice piece of information here transl.:
This is the first mokuroku (diploma) that has been given to a foreigner (juli 1986). A mokuroku (left) consists of a document and an envelope (right).**

The site http://www.shoshoryu.nl/English.html is talking about Sho Sho Ryu and therefore refers to the first "Sho Sho Ryu mokuroku" to a foreigner.
But this is of course what you do.. exploit any loopholes you find, and make it sound like it claims to be the first mokuroku EVER simply because it wasn't followed with the words "by the Sho Sho Ryu" even though the entire page is dedicated to the relationship between the Shin Tai Ryu and the Sho Sho and Muhen Yogan Ryu ONLY.

Either way... hereby that unfortunate use of words has been explained.

And finally, and that's how I first read about this guy, he used to be a ninja, sanada ryu shinobi blabla, and still occasionally gives seminars apparently:
source

Yes, there are workshops being held here including Sanada Ryu Shinobi Jitsu.

But it states:
Referent: Mark Sterke, Soke Godai Dotaiken – Mitglied Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai (Japan),Bu Jitsu, 9 Dan – Meister in Sho Sho Ryu – Meister Muhen Yogan Ryu

Referent (= expert in a similar field): Mark sterke (Name), Soke Godai Dotaiken (Title at the Shin Tai Ryu) - member of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai (Japan), Bu jitsu, 9th dan - Master Sho Sho Ryu - Master Muhen Yogan Ryu

Nothing about him being a ninja or having anything to do with Sanada Ryu other than being present at a few workshops.

The masters are graded in Sho Sho-ryu and yet the system is based on a different ryuha?

Yes,...
I'm sure you too have done more than one fighting style in your life.
Many people have done or are qualified to teach multiple styles.

Shin Tai ryu teaches Shin Tai Ryu version of dutch jujutsu (gonna use this pronounciation) But its teachers are ALSO graded in Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu.

So it started out as Tenjin-based and then changed to Sho Sho-ryu?

No it remains Tenjin based.... and on different training days/hours can you be taught Sho Sho Ryu as a seperate style should you choose to.
Occasionally we might get techniques from Sho Sho thrown in the mix..but all styles are taught seperatly

Tenjin based because of Judo (Kano having had teachings in it) and that amongst the fist dutch books regarding jujutsu (Like Toepoel, 1935 http://www.riahorter.com/OH12_Kynolo...GEBRAND124.pdf) the drawings indicate strong Tenjin influences.

What are the names of those Japanese jujutsu teachers? And which Dutchmen did they teach, and how are they in turn linked to mr. Sterke?

I'm speaking of Japanese teachers settling and introducing judo and Jujutsu in the west in GENERAL during this time period.
Not that this tradition had a DIRECT Japanese link.

Being a dutch tradition means it started with Maurice van Nieuwenhuizen > C. van Unen > J. Horsten > M. Sterke.

You can arguably go further with the Japanese Y.Tani (1899) arriving in London, and Toepoel starting in Holland (having been documented)
http://www.budoschool.com/pagina2/pa...nederland.html

[Anything on page 3]
Shin Tai Ryu nowhere claims to be Koryu, it has always claimed to teach a dutch jujutsu tradition, descending from M. van Nieuwenhuizen.
http://shintairyu.nl/Shin%20tai%20ry...ductieboek.pdf
The Shin Tai Ryu variation of Dutch jujutsu started to exist at the creation of the Shin Tai Ryu.

Some teachers at the Shin Tai Ryu do however have mokurokus in Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu (Koryu) teachings.
and so you CAN study Sho Sho Ryu or Muhen Yogan Ryu from them the way it was taught to them. (SEPERATE from Shin Tai Ryu teachings)
Page 13 has an old picture of them still studying it in Japan.

. Despite this, your school is named after an existing traditional style.

There is something called "Shintai" Ryu, but there is no other existing traditional style called "Shin Tai Ryu".

there were just some questions about lineage (to the Dutch jujutsu, and the 'traditional character' of it) that neither your buddy nor you yourself are willing to answer

how many times has "dutch ju jutsu tradition" been mentioned? what other "traditional character of it" could you possibly mean? wearing a Gi or a Hakama? having a Kamiza? Bowing? Kyu/Dan grading? Yes, we have those japanese traditions too.

and questions about his knowledge in some of the ryu he offers instruction in. The fact that you are trying to smooth that one over by saying that it is 'an introduction' or 'a seminar' is just semantics; something is taught, isn't it?

Only Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu are taught by Sterke and other teachers at the school.
http://shintairyu.nl/Shin%20tai%20ry...ductieboek.pdf
Page 23 has a pic of him together with the Sho Sho Ryu Grand master.

The following shows the grand master in action during a demonstration of several Sho Sho Ryu techniques

And here we have Sterke and van de Sanden performing one Sho Sho Ryu Technique


Other Ryu teachings are taught by external teachers from other schools during workshops.

Every question was answered with supporting sources or referring to a website with sources (some perhaps only in dutch)
In a Nutshell:
* Shin Tai Ryu jujutsu is a Dutch tradition of jujutsu (only tradition mentioned by Shin Tai Ryu)
* Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu are Koryu and seperate from Shin Tai Ryu
* Other Ryu are available and introduced through Workshops with other schools.
* Sterke has over 40 years of physical experience in Martial arts, including full instruction in Dutch Jujutsu and to the level of achieving mokurokus in Sho Sho and Muhen Yogan Ryu. (Not books and DVD's, if anything HE writes books and therefore does indeed do some literary research, but emphasis is on Physically going to China and Japan, visiting schools and temples for this research.)

[It is Fake]

We didn't answer the Questions?

What are the names of those Japanese jujutsu teachers? And which Dutchmen did they teach, and how are they in turn linked to mr. Sterke?




if you know koryu, do you know what is strange about these statements?

The lack of clear lineage and the fact that some fundamental characteristics of koryu are absent in Sterke's way of transmission, all point in my opinon to 'the invention of tradition' and dabbling in koryu. There you go, I've said it.

Knowing the shintairyu for sometime know and knowing mr. Sterke (a bit), his claims are onebig fake. The Shintairyu is made up from ju jutsu techniques that come from allover the place. Books, videos, Japan, China, Holland, taekwondo, judo, ko ryu etc.

He has made-up his own system, not that bad, but he is promoting it as being “real ko ryu jujutsu” which of course it isn’t. The best name I can give it is self-made Dutch self defense , or maybe budo.

Beside hisown made-up ju jutsu he apparently is teaching old Japanese martial arts. But,just to be clear, his teaching come from book’s videos and his own interpretations. And not from years of study and appreciation of headmasters / teachers from the Japanseko ryu, he is teaching in (Sho Sho Ryu is probably the only exception).

My advise…. Just use your commonsense! Don’t learn ju jutsu from books and videos by yourself, don’t study with teachers which thought themselves by books and videos.

I agree the techniques he is using are almost all his own creation or he implemented it into his shintairyu. The people he talks about in his lineage claims never did shintairyu. Why? It didn't exist.

Your metaphor makes no sense. Your school is named after a style it doesn't teach... don't you see how that might lead to some confusion?




Okay, what research? (As in provide links to it).

So if my understanding is right: your school is a flavor of dutch jujutsu, which in turn is a flavor of japanese jujutsu.

So what I conclude is that this is a completely modern system. (Not that it is necessarily a bad thing). Despite this, your school is named after an existing traditional style.

Yeah, no idea why people would be confused by this.

OK, FYT can you please confirm this, just to be sure if I understand it correctly.

- Shintairyu is a Dutch school practising Dutch ju jutsu. Dutch ju jutsu is a mix of martial from al kinds of art (Japanese, Chinese, unkown).
- The linage is based on people knowing and teaching each other. Not on school name and more or less fixed teachings. So lets call this the Dutch way of counting linage not the Japanese way.
- Regarding Japanese ko ryu, mr. Sterke is only teaching students Sho sho ryu and Muhen yongan ryu. All other schools are not being educated.

Is this correct?

And if it is correct I'm wondering what this website is all about?
http://www.shintairyu.nl/NAvTK%20%28English%29.html

So when it says Oranda Bujutsu Gakkai they mean Shintairyu. Just a question FYT how many intense contacts with ko ryu schools placed on the list are there (beside the Sho sho ryu and muhen yongan ryu)? Or is this a secret...

That is a big No, you two didn't answer questions.

PDF quote:
In this table all martial arts which are available at the Oranda Bujutsu Gakkai and/or
Shin tai ryu:



Beyond that referring to the 2nd page starting with: Some extra information on Koryu kobudo and Shin kobudo




http://www.shintairyu.nl/Koryu%20Buj...webversie).pdf

Shin Tai Ryu has Shin Tai Ryu as its program and 5 styles have been listed as complete programs through the Gakkai.
The rest are workshops.

Providing training/seminars (in other words workshops a tip of an iceberg) by the Gakkai (group of schools) for those interested.

Quality is based on opinions, but a workshop is a workshop.

This is an advertisement not an answer. Telling people what is offered and a "a workshop is a workshop" is called deflection, avoidance, or proof that you aren't grasping the conversation.

The site http://www.shoshoryu.nl/English.html is talking about Sho Sho Ryu and therefore refers to the first "Sho Sho Ryu mokuroku" to a foreigner.
But this is of course what you do.. exploit any loopholes you find, and make it sound like it claims to be the first mokuroku EVER simply because it wasn't followed with the words "by the Sho Sho Ryu" even though the entire page is dedicated to the relationship between the Shin Tai Ryu and the Sho Sho and Muhen Yogan Ryu ONLY.

A loophole? Go back and look at ALL OF THE LOOPHOLES and EXCUSES you have used to avoid answering questions. Just like your newest post is full of misdirections and ignorance.

Either way... hereby that unfortunate use of words has been explained.

Hahaha because you say so? Nope, that isn't how research works. I posted the unanswered questions, nothing has been explained.

Yes, there are workshops being held here including Sanada Ryu Shinobi Jitsu.

But it states:
Referent: Mark Sterke, Soke Godai Dotaiken – Mitglied Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai (Japan),Bu Jitsu, 9 Dan – Meister in Sho Sho Ryu – Meister Muhen Yogan Ryu

Referent (= expert in a similar field): Mark sterke (Name), Soke Godai Dotaiken (Title at the Shin Tai Ryu) - member of the Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai (Japan), Bu jitsu, 9th dan - Master Sho Sho Ryu - Master Muhen Yogan Ryu

Nothing about him being a ninja or having anything to do with Sanada Ryu other than being present at a few workshops.

Unsubstantiated bio? Are you ever going to prove these claims or keep retyping the same garbage over and over again? That's a rhetorical question. I know the answer is no, you'll just keep typing the same garbage.

Shin Tai ryu teaches Shin Tai Ryu version of dutch jujutsu (gonna use this pronounciation) and its teachers are graded in Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu.

This is the real semantics. Did you miss the question where you were asked for his physical training and teachers names? You do understand the issue is if he learned this off of video or had actual teachers.

Tenjin based because of Judo (Kano having had teachings in it) and that amongst the fist dutch books regarding jujutsu (Like Toepoel, 1935 http://www.riahorter.com/OH12_Kynolo...GEBRAND124.pdf) the drawings indicate strong Tenjin influences.






You can arguably go further with the Japanese Y.Tani (1899) arriving in London, and Toepoel starting in Holland (having been documented)
http://www.budoschool.com/pagina2/pa...nederland.html

You do understand that you need to make a PHYSICAL LINEAGE TIE to your teacher right?
I don't get to claim I have BJJ lineage because the Brazilians brought BJJ to America. Yes, that is exactly what you are trying to do.

[Anything on page 3]
Shin Tai Ryu nowhere claims to be Koryu, it has always claimed to teach a dutch jujutsu tradition, descending from M. van Nieuwenhuizen.
http://shintairyu.nl/Shin%20tai%20ry...ductieboek.pdf
The Shin Tai Ryu variation of Dutch jujutsu started to exist at the creation of the Shin Tai Ryu.

Hahahaha really? I don't know, maybe it is due to you being ESL, but this is a ridiculous contradictory statement.

Some teachers at the Shin Tai Ryu do however have mokurokus in Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu (Koryu) teachings.
and so you CAN study Sho Sho Ryu or Muhen Yogan Ryu from them the way it was taught to them. (SEPERATE from Shin Tai Ryu teachings)
Page 13 has an old picture of them still studying it in Japan.

You know we are talking about your instructor right? Is this where you build the "these teachers helped my teacher learn other arts" BS argument?

There is something called "Shintai" Ryu, but there is no other existing traditional style called "Shin Tai Ryu".


how many times has "dutch ju jutsu tradition" been mentioned? what other "traditional character of it" could you possibly mean? wearing a Gi or a Hakama? having a Kamiza? Bowing? Kyu/Dan grading? Yes, we have those japanese traditions too.

Semantics. What you call it does not matter. You were asked about the lineage and teachers that taught the style. If he made it up then say that.

Only Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu are taught by Sterke and other teachers at the school.

And here we have Sterke and van de Sanden performing one Sho Sho Ryu Technique


Other Ryu teachings are taught by external teachers from other schools during workshops.

Lineage proof please.

Every question was answered with supporting sources or referring to a website with sources (some perhaps only in dutch)
In a Nutshell:
* Shin Tai Ryu jujutsu is a Dutch tradition of jujutsu (only tradition mentioned by Shin Tai Ryu)
* Sho Sho Ryu and Muhen Yogan Ryu are Koryu and seperate from Shin Tai Ryu
* Other Ryu are available and introduced through Workshops with other schools.
* Sterke has over 40 years of physical experience in Martial arts, including full instruction in Dutch Jujutsu and to the level of achieving mokurokus in Sho Sho and Muhen Yogan Ryu. (Not books and DVD's, if anything HE writes books and therefore does indeed do some literary research, but emphasis is on Physically going to China and Japan, visiting schools and temples for this research.)

Nope, you did not answer all question. Your next job is to learn what Peer review means and scholarly sources.

[It is Fake]

Peer Review

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/peer%20review

: a process by which something proposed (as for research or publication) is evaluated by a group of experts in the appropriate field

http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/peer%20review

a process by which a scholarly work (such as a paper or a research proposal) is checked by a group of experts in the same field to make sure it meets the necessary standards before it is published or accepted

No until their education is vetted, your instructor, the students, and other teachers are not SCHOLARLY SOURCES. It means that the pdf needs to be sent to INDEPENDENT Judo historians, Jujutsu historians, and other Japanese scholars for research. Then these scholars either CONFIRM or DENY the assertions made in the document. Then it is has been peer reviewed.


Scholarly Vs Non-Scholarly
http://libguides.pstcc.edu/content.p...7573&sid=48139

Webster’s Third International Dictionary defines “scholarly” as: 1) concerned with academic study, especially research, 2) exhibiting the methods and attitudes of a scholar, and 3) having the manner and appearance of a scholar.

“Substantive” is defined as “having a solid base, being substantial.”

“Popular” means “fit for, or reflecting the taste and intelligence of the people at large.”

“Sensational” is defined as “arousing or intending to arouse strong curiosity, interest or reaction.”

Keeping these definitions in mind, and realizing that none of the lines drawn between types of journals can ever be totally clear cut, we can say that in general the criteria are as follows:

The pdf becomes "Scholarly" if the researchers, in the field of study, say it is acceptable. If they don't approve, it is just another article.

[DARPAChief]

Shin kobudo

新古武道? Really?