MMA a belts are a shame.

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 10:55am

Originally Posted by jrljudoka

Its a safe assumption that these MMA belt ranks are an attempt to legitiamize what they are teaching, false credibility so to speak.

What makes you think they are not credible? There are a lot of legit MMA gyms out there. Who are you to tell them, that they can't rank people in their own system?

Its very similar to the diploma mills you can find on the internet to obtain a college degree which in reality means nothing but implies quite a bit.

No it's not. In those mills, you just send off for the degree. When you get ranked in someone's system, you have to train and test to get those ranks.

We all have know how insulting and fraudualent it is when one claims fake BJJ rank. How is this any different?

Because they are not claiming a BJJ rank. They are claiming a rank in the system they train in.

Even Law enforcement instuctors are required to obtain independant certification to become an instructor are they not?

This has nothing to do with anything. You don't get belts when you train in the academy. And certification from one state may mean next to nothing in the next state. This is actually a worse comparison than you realize.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 11:30am

Meh, I rank in two arts that were eclectic mixes since the beginning and it doesn't bother me.

**jrljudoka** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 11:33am

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

What makes you think they are not credible? There are a lot of legit MMA gyms out there. Who are you to tell them, that they can't rank people in their own system?.

How are these ranks any different than the hundreds of Jiujitsu this and jiu jitsu that schools (NON BJJ) that have created thier own system, thier own rank structure, and promote themselves, some one who has taken a bit of boxing, a bit of BJJ with no rank, played a bit of Judo, TKD .. and now creates his OWN Blah blah Ryu Jiujitsu. Who awarded so and so HIS Black Belt in John Doe MMA? Thier own system? Really? So these people have thier own system? Hanging up a sign over ones front door does not make a system. This is a free counrty ofcourse ... ppl can do what ever they like within the confines of the law as you ofcourse know ... but this is no different than all the self proclaimed "Masters" out there of thier own "systems" who couldnt fight thier way out of a paper sack nor are they qualified to teach even basic mathmatics.

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

No it's not. In those mills, you just send off for the degree. When you get ranked in someone's system, you have to train and test to get those ranks.?.

There are "diploma mills" where you can also take minimal classes and obtain a degree .... THESE institutions are NOT credentialed, nor are they independantly/objectively certified.

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

Because they are not claiming a BJJ rank. They are claiming a rank in the system they train in.

System? I believe it takes a bit more than a few fights under your belt, dabbling in techniques from various Martial Arts and a few years of training to come up with your own "System" .... delusions of grandeur.

Originally Posted by Diesel_tke

This has nothing to do with anything. You don't get belts when you train in the academy. And certification from one state may mean next to nothing in the next state. This is actually a worse comparison than you realize.

BUT .... your acadamy training HAS been developed over decades of experiance, delivered typically by instructors who have also been INDEPENDANTLY evaluated by thier peers to know and be able to teach the subject matter.

MMA clubs creating thier own Belt system is a ploy to imply some credentials and "Asian" feel to what they are teaching because they havent put in the time and commitement in a recognized MA to EARN a legitimate BB from an objective and independant instructor so they can also award legitimate rank in a MA. Its laughable to hear someone say they have a blah blah Belt in Joe Blow MMA.

**ZenMMA** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 11:49am

I think the beauty of MMA is the fact there is no belt system and if you want to start blowing smoke then you have to put up or shut up.

I cant think of anything worse than MMA belts being awarded, especially as there is no set curriculum for MMA, meaning said belts would vary so much from club to club that it would be pointless using them as a measurement of ability.The paradox is that as soon as you put a curriculum to MMA then it becomes its own style and is then no longer Mixed Martial Arts, but a curriculum of a set number of moves consisting of a set number of martial arts, where as the beauty of MMA has always been that (with the exception of the WC hair pull and eye gouge) moves from any art can be used.

I dont think I'm making sense here....its late, the Thai TV is distracting me, my gf is ignoring me a ft away in the bed and Im thinking if tomorrow will be a training day or rest day..also I shaved my head today....I look like a chimp...my back itches...and now Zac effron is annoying me in what feels like a 30minute trailer of a chick flick....

Im going to sleep.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 12:58pm

I just called Jon Hackleman, he wants to kick your ass now.

**Permalost** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 12:59pm

Originally Posted by jrljudoka

How are these ranks any different than the hundreds of Jiujitsu this and jiu jitsu that schools (NON BJJ) that have created thier own system, thier own rank structure, and promote themselves, some one who has taken a bit of boxing, a bit of BJJ with no rank, played a bit of Judo, TKD .. and now creates his OWN Blah blah Ryu Jiujitsu. Who awarded so and so HIS Black Belt in John Doe MMA? Thier own system? Really? So these people have thier own system? Hanging up a sign over ones front door does not make a system. This is a free counrty ofcourse ... ppl can do what ever they like within the confines of the law as you ofcourse know ... but this is no different than all the self proclaimed "Masters" out there of thier own "systems" who couldnt fight thier way out of a paper sack nor are they qualified to teach even basic mathmatics.

How do you feel about Cacoy Canete meshing his eskrima and Japanese martial arts background to create eskrido? He certainly had more experience than just "more than a few fights under your belt, dabbling in techniques from various Martial Arts and a few years of training to come up with your own "System"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cacoy_Canete

**hathor** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 1:36pm

EDIT: In response to the OP

There's an MMA blackbelt at the bjj/MT/Kempo place I train at. He's undefeated as an amateur fighter and a complete badass. I'm sure he'd love to here more about what you think

**Diesel_tke** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 1:49pm

Originally Posted by jrljudoka

[I]How are these ranks any different than the hundreds of Jiujitsu this and jiu jitsu that schools (NON BJJ) that have created thier own system, thier own rank structure, and promote themselves, some one who has taken a bit of boxing, a bit of BJJ with no rank, played a bit of Judo, TKD .. and now creates his OWN Blah blah Ryu Jiujitsu. Who awarded so and so HIS Black Belt in John Doe MMA? Thier own system? Really? So these people have thier own system? Hanging up a sign over ones front door does not make a system. This is a free counrty ofcourse ... ppl can do what ever they like within the confines of the law as you ofcourse know ... but this is no different than all the self proclaimed "Masters" out there of thier own "systems" who couldnt fight thier way out of a paper sack nor are they qualified to teach even basic mathmatics

The point is that you can make a belt in whatever you want. As long as you are not misrepresenting what you are teaching, where you learned it, and who you are, it is fine. If someone says I have a BB in TKD, some people will think that's awesome. Some will not. It doesn't matter.

Spar them and see what they are about. The belt doesn't matter.

There are "diploma mills" where you can also take minimal classes and obtain a degree .... THESE institutions are NOT credentialed, nor are they independantly/objectively certified.

Yeah, but if I tell you I have a degree from Harvard or Jim Bob U., you can accept it for what it is worth. People get degrees from non acredited universities all the time. They are worthless to some, and valuable to others. Doesn't matter. Did the person get out of it, what they wanted. That is what matters. Are they going to get into grad school with it, probably not. So who cares?

System? I believe it takes a bit more than a few fights under your belt, dabbling in techniques from various Martial Arts and a few years of training to come up with your own "System" .... delusions of grandeur.

Really? And who are you to decide what is worth a system and what isn't? If the system works, and the person learns what they set out to learn, then it is fine for what it is. There are some pretty simple systems out there, that believe that the true value of the system is to learn the few techniques and master them, rather than learn a thousand flashy ones. You can debate that all day.

BUT .... your acadamy training HAS been developed over decades of experiance, delivered typically by instructors who have also been INDEPENDANTLY evaluated by thier peers to know and be able to teach the subject matter.

Now you are talking out of your ass. I've been to DT schools where they had instructors with less than a year of experience, and they were teaching ass backwards techniques that were flawed all over the place. We also have entire threads on this as well.

MMA clubs creating thier own Belt system is a ploy to imply some credentials and "Asian" feel to what they are teaching because they havent put in the time and commitement in a recognized MA to EARN a legitimate BB from an objective and independant instructor so they can also award legitimate rank in a MA.

Some of these schools give belts, because the public has come to accept that as a standard of ranking for martial arts. So they are catering to their customers. Anyone in America knows that what a BB in martial arts is. Not because they are "Asian" history buffs, but because it is a recognized form of grading.

Its laughable to hear someone say they have a blah blah Belt in Joe Blow MMA.

That's the point. Say you have a BB in Jim Bob MMA and no one cares. Say you have one in Hackleman's Kenpo and you may get a different response. Why?

**downtime** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 2:16pm

Originally Posted by jrljudoka

[I]MMA clubs creating thier own Belt system is a ploy to imply some credentials and "Asian" feel to what they are teaching because they havent put in the time and commitement in a recognized MA to EARN a legitimate BB from an objective and independant instructor so they can also award legitimate rank in a MA. Its laughable to hear someone say they have a blah blah Belt in Joe Blow MMA.

MEH----Someone correct me if Im wrong but doesnt Pat Miletich give out rank in the Miletich Fighting system? Its what it is....feel free to walk up to him and tell him its absurd and that he needs to be independently recognized before doing such a thing.

**jrljudoka** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 2:30pm

Originally Posted by hathor

EDIT: In response to the OP

There's an MMA blackbelt at the bjj/MT/Kempo place I train at. He's undefeated as an amateur fighter and a complete badass. I'm sure he'd love to here more about what you think

Not even remotely questioning his "badass-ness" No doubt LOTS of amateur fighters are tough as nails .... and no question of thier skill when thier opponents are lying prostrate on the cage floor. But THAT does not quantify what constitutes an "MMA Blackbelt". Why even use the term "Black Belt" .. why not use Pink Belt .... or Purple wrist band .. or ... "Levels of Certification"? The term Black Belt has a specific connotation .... albeit with some MAs its a bit of a farce .. the general populace attaches some "credibilty" and "mastership" of a TMA. Whats the "yardstick" for a Black Belt in MMA? So many MMA folks have often turned thier noses up to TMA systems with Belts etc, lots of young and cocky MMA/no Gi wanna be's sneer at TMAs, Gi Brazilian Jui jitsu .. etc ... and now we have MMA Gyms creating thier own Belt systems? Wow .... am I the only one who sees the marketing ploy and hypocracy in this?

Just out of curiosity .. without casting any dispersions or even remotely sarcastic implications towards the MMA Black Belt you refer to ... if the place where you train is a BJJ/MT/Kempo place .. why an MMA Black Belt instead of BJJ Black, or Kempo Black? Just sayin ...