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  1. cualltaigh is online now
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2012 4:17pm


     Style: BJJ, MMA, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by curiousman View Post
    You are absolutely right, that's why I asked if the positional requirements of this technique makes it unsuitable for self defense purposes.

    I mean, looking at the picture you posted, you have to be very close, and you have to be positioned to the right side of your attacker (he is to your right) in order to get your right hand up onto his chin.

    It seems somewhat difficult to accomplish if he's attacking you. But I guess if he throws a haymaker with his right hand and you dodge to his right (you are moving to your left) then that might just leave him in a perfect position to be chin jabbed.

    I agree that if you do manage to land a clean, full powered chin jab, then you should be able to knock him out or at knock him down. But you could make the same argument for the spinning backfist or a roundhouse kick to the head or even a haymaker, and these aren't necessarily great self defense moves.

    So to clarify, what I'm asking here is exactly how practical is this move given the special position that it requires to be used properly?
    One of the setups we do for this is from them throwing a right haymaker (or wild right as we call it). Rather than dodge the punch we block and step through it, the chin jab is more of a counter punch. From the position in permalost's pic we add a little spice to the head into ground with a leg reap (osoto usually). Trained properly it can be executed quite quickly and would be effective if someone was dumb/drunk enough to attack you in this fashion.
    Dum spiro, spero.
    Tada gan iarracht.
  2. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2012 4:19pm


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As other have pointed out, the chin jab is not just an uppercut, but is used in conjunction with the strike to the back(kidney area) which also helps concentrate the force on the neck area. You are striking the farthest point(the chin) from the axis(the spinal column) giving you the most leverage for a snapping action. By striking and holding the guy in places, he cant move back with the force.

    Is it hard to setup? Not if you practice, it is essentially a sidestep with a strike to the rear, followed quickly by the chinjab and knee to the nuts.

    Be all and end all? Who knows. Any reason it shouldn't work, especially if you continue through convert the chinjab to tigerclaw(fingers in eyes) push down, slam head into concrete and follow up with a stomping kick.
  3. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2012 4:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by curiousman View Post
    You are absolutely right, that's why I asked if the positional requirements of this technique makes it unsuitable for self defense purposes.

    I mean, looking at the picture you posted, you have to be very close, and you have to be positioned to the right side of your attacker (he is to your right) in order to get your right hand up onto his chin.

    It seems somewhat difficult to accomplish if he's attacking you. But I guess if he throws a haymaker with his right hand and you dodge to his right (you are moving to your left) then that might just leave him in a perfect position to be chin jabbed.
    As far as being close to your opponent, that shouldn't be a problem in a pre-fight or charging situation- seems more likely to be very close when violence breaks out than just outside of kicking range, for example. Regarding being to one side, a great many effective techniques start by being to one side or the other, and that doesn't stop them from being effective. I'd even say that moving to one side of their centerline or the other along different angles is a fundamental skill of fighting, whether its striking, grappling or weapons.

    I agree that if you do manage to land a clean, full powered chin jab, then you should be able to knock him out or at knock him down. But you could make the same argument for the spinning backfist or a roundhouse kick to the head or even a haymaker, and these aren't necessarily great self defense moves.
    I don't want to come across as an RBSD nuthugger, but the spinning backfist, high roundhouse and haymaker are all things that can't be done inside the space of a phone booth; the chin jab is.

    So to clarify, what I'm asking here is exactly how practical is this move given the special position that it requires to be used properly?
    "Close and to the side" isn't that big of a special position- it can be achieved in a single forward step, which is a good idea for an initially forward strike anyway.
  4. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2012 6:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by curiousman View Post
    Thanks for the warning. The lack of evidence is the main problem I have with these old WW2 combatives. I never see anyone using them.
    I would have a hard time discounting their research, both from training and information brought back from the field, about the effectiveness of WW2 combatives techniques. Properly applied, esp in conjunction with something like Judo, they're very effective. (Note: most of the well known founders of WW2 combatives were accomplished dan-ranked judoka back then, as high as 4th dan I believe)

    Now in theory, palm strikes to the head are a good idea since palms can deliver more power due to lack of wrist movement and can transfer more force without breaking. However outside of Pancrase I practically never see it being used as a substitute for the punch. I don't know if this is just because people are used to punching with the fist, or if they decided that the fist is more effective than the palm, or if the use of gloves makes the fist superior to the palm.
    Bas Rutten has stated as much in interviews, that he prefers to punch because that is where most of his training has been, but he indeed found open hand strikes to be very effective, and anyone who's seen his self-defense material has seen that he personally uses a combination of both fists and open-hand strikes.


    Ah yes, Bas Rutten used a lot of palm strikes in Pancrase and some of these were knockouts. So it is definitely possible to knock people out with palm strikes instead of fist strikes. But is it worth giving up the extra range of a fist? Does it have equal or better knockout power?
    The range really isn't that much different, meh a couple inches, it's much more of an issue that one learn the effective strikes & combinations that work with open hand strikes rather than opening your hand and then assuming that you can just box with your palms. Open hands work differently.

    Just in case anyone is confused, here's about the best description of the classic WW2 Chin Jab you'll find.







    & keep in mind that this is not a Tiger Claw strike, they differentiate between the two:




    edit: here's another take

    Last edited by Jim_Jude; 4/18/2012 6:11pm at .
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
  5. Cdnronin is offline

    Ghost of Kawaishi

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2012 6:59pm


     Style: judo, parenting

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Strangely enough, I learned how to properly do a chinjab at a seminar by Carl Cestari.
  6. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Shime Waza Test Dummy

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2012 9:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cdnronin View Post
    Strangely enough, I learned how to properly do a chinjab at a seminar by Carl Cestari.
    I'm not surprised.
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
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