Chin jab - is it really all that?

[DubhGhaill]

Found the Bas quote, for what it's worth...

T-Nation: How did your first fight go?

BR: It was the craziest experience of my life because I was a Thai Boxer. I was used to rounds, five rounds of three minutes. I was used to maybe a five-pound weight difference. But then I came there and my opponent was like 45 pounds heavier! I asked him how many rounds and he said, "One." I said, "Great, how many minutes?" and he said, "30." I said, "Great! I'm in great shape!" And then I looked at my manager and I tried to get my poker face on. I said, "What the **** did you do to me, man?"

T-Nation: And who was that opponent?

BR: Yanagisawa. And then, the weirdest thing in the world happened. I came out and I just manhandled the guy. At that time my Thai Boxing was phenomenal. It was like 43 seconds and the guy goes to the hospital and spent two days there. So I got really scared...

T-Nation: But that was open-handed, old Pancrase rules, right?

BR: Yes, open-handed, but he was taller than me so what happened was I gave him a right high-kick and he defended it, so I went straight through the middle "BOONK!" under his jaw, "BAAAAH!" and he goes down and I think it's over. He stands up and I think okay, now I gotta' get his hands down, so how do I do it? I give him a liver kick, "BOOOOM!" his hands drop, and I come right straight again. While he was going down I kneed him in the head.

He was on the ground, eyes open. I think he stood up maybe three times and stumbled down three times. They called an ambulance and then I got scared, because I thought I did something to the guy. And he was a really nice guy, too.

But the audience went wild for me. I couldn't believe it. In Holland, if you're a foreign guy and you beat a Dutch guy, hopefully you're going to make it out alive. You know what I mean. But these people, they're putting babies in my hand, taking pictures with babies. I couldn't believe it. The next day I was walking in the street and people were bowing to me. I was in the papers. I just couldn't believe it.

I wanted to stay here in Japan, because I wanted to know what was going on with Yanagisawa, but he came out. Strange enough, he was the shortest fight I've ever had, and in the rematch he was the longest fight I've ever had — 28 minutes. But in the rematch I broke my hand in the first punching exchange. He came in too soon, so I didn't flex my muscle at all, so I broke my hand on his head. I only had one arm left. So you see me submitting him with one arm every time. I submitted him like five times and the last time was a choke.

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...4F-mcd02.hydra

See the actual fight here...



Looks more like a straight palm-heel punch to the chin than a classic "chin-jab" but definitely effective.

[DubhGhaill]

This is the closest thing to a live action chin jab that I could find on YouTube...

[curiousman]

Sorry for the delay, couldn't figure out what was wrong (I had a link in my post).

Definitely obscure and not used often. I think the biggest factor is that virtually nobody allows this kind of move in sparring so it's difficult to develop the necessary sense of timing and distance to make it instinctive.

Of all the actual violence I've seen/been involved in I know of only one incident in which the Chin Jab was used. In that case it was a large polynesian type bouncer who employed it against another large polynesian type. I'm told it was a one shot knockout. No fatality.

So we've got Bas Rutten allegedly knocking somebody out with something like a chin jab once and some unknown bouncer allegedly using it once. I definitely wouldn't want to get hit with one, but that's really not a lot of evidence in favor of this technique.

Also, I'm quite the fan of WWII Combatives but you should be aware that "Captain Chris" of closecombattraining is generally regarded as a complete charlatan.

Thanks for the warning. The lack of evidence is the main problem I have with these old WW2 combatives. I never see anyone using them. Now in theory, palm strikes to the head are a good idea since palms can deliver more power due to lack of wrist movement and can transfer more force without breaking. However outside of Pancrase I practically never see it being used as a substitute for the punch. I don't know if this is just because people are used to punching with the fist, or if they decided that the fist is more effective than the palm, or if the use of gloves makes the fist superior to the palm.

First off, ignore multiple attackers completely. If you can't handle one then you can't handle many. Even if you can handle one, you CANNOT handle many if they're smart about it. Your best defense against multiple attackers is to not be there. Run.

That is true but the worst case scenario is that you're trapped and cannot escape without knocking down some attackers first to create a way out. Of course running is always the first option but sometimes it's not available.

Yes. Here's why:
1) Can be difficult to see coming.

An uppercut (or the chin jab) is a close range punch. It travels upwards close to your opponent's chest, on the edge of his field of vision.

2) Can be difficult to block an uppercut and maintain your guard.

Combos. If it hits, hopefully it'll pop your opponent's head up, outside his guard. Left hook, right uppercut, left hook is a common combo designed to exploit this.

Blocking an uppercut typically requires moving your guard momentarily opening your opponent to other strikes. A right uppercut, left hook to body, right hook to head is meant to exploit this.

Thank you for explaining. I agree that a chin jab or uppercut would be difficult to block because of the close range. However, at that range, would another strike such an elbow or headbutt be more effective for producing a knockout?

Found the Bas quote, for what it's worth...


See the actual fight here...

Looks more like a straight palm-heel punch to the chin than a classic "chin-jab" but definitely effective.

Ah yes, Bas Rutten used a lot of palm strikes in Pancrase and some of these were knockouts. So it is definitely possible to knock people out with palm strikes instead of fist strikes. But is it worth giving up the extra range of a fist? Does it have equal or better knockout power?

This is the closest thing to a live action chin jab that I could find on YouTube...

It sounds like a slap but looks like a palm strike. I can't see where it landed but it clearly jerked the head backwards violently. The slapped man was looking downwards at the time so could it have landed on his face rather than the chin?

[JohnKenner]

Thanks for the warning. The lack of evidence is the main problem I have with these old WW2 combatives. I never see anyone using them.

The video of Kelly McCann is pretty good. I would say he has some trustworthy credentials.

That is true but the worst case scenario is that you're trapped and cannot escape without knocking down some attackers first to create a way out. Of course running is always the first option but sometimes it's not available.

Oh boy, this is certainly a sign of things to come... When it comes to multiple attackers, victory is rarely an option - survival (and more precisely "escape and evade") becomes your strategy. Look for Urijah Faber's interview video about his escapades on Bali.

Thank you for explaining. I agree that a chin jab or uppercut would be difficult to block because of the close range. However, at that range, would another strike such an elbow or headbutt be more effective for producing a knockout?

One punch knockouts are a rarity, even among professionals. When it does happen in the wild, it is usually due to surprise (i.e. getting sucker punched by a third party you didn't realize you were fighting. for examples of this search "St. Louis Knockout Kings Game").

Elbows and headbutts are certainly both effective, but both have even more limited range than a hook or uppercut. Again, neither of the aforementioned strikes are likely to cause a single punch knockout - in most cases you will need to build up to it.

[DubhGhaill]

Oh, I'd say palm strikes in general (not just chin jabs) can be very effective. They were real popular among the bouncers in Sydney and a fair number of street-fighters/brawlers around there seemed to have figured them out as well.

Personally, I believe I can hit a lot harder using palm strikes than I can with my fists. In fact the last real fight I ever got in (outside of training or competition) I knocked down a much bigger guy with a single slap. He hit me first, once, with a right cross to the left cheekbone. I hit him back, once, with a right slap to the left temple. He went down like a tonne of bricks.

I wouldn't say that palm strikes are more effective than elbows or headbutts. I wouldn't even say they're necessarily more effective than punches but they definitely can do the job and take a bit less practice to learn than some other options.

I second the recommendation for Kelly McCann's stuff as pretty damn good.

[cualltaigh]

We use this palm strike (we refer to it as the don't argue) to set up forward throws, like osoto and Kosoto gari. Whilst I'm sure there might be potential to get a knockout purely from the strike, it's main benefit is that it sets up (partly at least) the kuzushi for the throw.

[Permalost]

I think its worth noting that in WW2 combatives, the chin jab was often taught in conjunction with something else, including a knee to the testicles, grabbing the belt with the other hand to break the posture with the strike and lead into a takedown, wrapping their weapon arm with the other hand, checking their closest arm against their body in case it isn't up yet, and/or following the posture break with a leg reap. In fact, you'll rarely find the chin jab in an old combatives manual without something else happening at the same time or right after. So, its a bit different to analyze it as one singular strike to the chin. Having said that, it can be an effective strike, particularly if the strikee is unaware and relaxed and leaving his chin sticking out, but no strike works 100% of the time.

[Mtripp]

Moreover, the chin jab as taught by Fairbairn was ALWAYS followed by an eye jab with the same hand. In fact, if you watch the video of Fairbairn himself, you see him do the strike then come up and over into the eye gouge then start slamming his fingers into the eyes.

This is exactly as described in "Get Tough."

[Permalost]

It's also often shown with an elbow raise of the striking hand, to give it a solid angle for downward force after the head is rocked back, which is different than the standard straight palm strike to the chin we've seen in lots of krotty stuff. Like in this pic:

Note he's not just striking up and forward like a conventional high palm strike.

if one were able to get this position, the head could be forcefully shoved towards the ground and hit the ground with the back of the head leading, with the head-to-ground ground being the "lethal blow" of the technique, not the palm strike itself.

Seems to me that if you're considering this for self defense, the more important question is "can I, personally, reliably get to this position without putting myself in a bad position?", is the more important consideration than "would this hurt/injure a guy?"

[curiousman]

Seems to me that if you're considering this for self defense, the more important question is "can I, personally, reliably get to this position without putting myself in a bad position?"

You are absolutely right, that's why I asked if the positional requirements of this technique makes it unsuitable for self defense purposes.

I mean, looking at the picture you posted, you have to be very close, and you have to be positioned to the right side of your attacker (he is to your right) in order to get your right hand up onto his chin.

It seems somewhat difficult to accomplish if he's attacking you. But I guess if he throws a haymaker with his right hand and you dodge to his right (you are moving to your left) then that might just leave him in a perfect position to be chin jabbed.

I agree that if you do manage to land a clean, full powered chin jab, then you should be able to knock him out or at knock him down. But you could make the same argument for the spinning backfist or a roundhouse kick to the head or even a haymaker, and these aren't necessarily great self defense moves.

So to clarify, what I'm asking here is exactly how practical is this move given the special position that it requires to be used properly?