MAtt here is a question

[Matt Phillips]

Just to be clear it seems USA Judo will reference your outside rank, but they will not reciprocally recognize it. At least that's what I was told when I called them. The part of this story I am still fuzzy on is 1) When this policy went into effect and 2) Is the policy toward JA different than any other org (JF, Kodokan, etc.)

[Mtripp]

If the paperwork is from a legit flow from the IJF, I suspect yes, they will accept it.

[BKR]

Ben,
We are going to have to agree on "terms" here. Your "Ok, I know" speaks to the central issue here. Yes, USA Judo will accept, with proof, that you have a USJA (insert rank here). However, that USJA part WILL be put forth in ALL discussions of said rank. Because of, as you said "Ok, I know."

Do you mean as in private discussions of whether or not said person "deserves" said USJA rank,or as a part of the process of issuing a duplicate rank certificate? I thought the issuance of a duplicate rank certifcate was fairly routine. The USJA (JF) rank holder applied to USA Judo, with the appropriate certificate and proof of identity, someone at USA Judo verified the reqestor's rank with USJA (JF), if everything appeared kosher then the duplicate certificate was issued.

The main reason for this sort of duplicate being issued is if one wants to participate in some sort of IJF event/activity, or, perhaps travel to a foreign country to do Judo. Most NGBs won't even know what "USJA" is, and won't accept your rank unless it was issued by the NBG. So, you get a USA Judo certifcate that is labeled "duplicate" to show that your rank is recognized by the NGB.

As far as discussing rank goes, it doesn't matter who issued your rank, it will be discussed, LOL. I mean, I've seen USA Judo promotions I thought were disgusting. One of my instructors got up and walked out of a USA Judo promotion test because the person testing should not even have been there. I'm sure there are people who think I shouldn't even be an ikkyu, and my "pedigree" is totally legit.

What I'm trying to explain to Matt (and anyone else who cares) is that USA Judo recognizing rank is different than having USA Judo (the only NGB) issued rank earned in the USA Judo system (such as my shodan and sandan).

Recognizing USJA rank would be, for example, if I want to compete in a USA Judo sanctioned tournament (US Open) that requires a certain rank (say shodan). I show my USJA rank certificate and photo ID with my entry form, and it is accepted by USA Judo as proof I'm shodan because USA Judo recognizes USJA rank.

The caveat here is that procedures may have changed.

There is no way USA Judo will issue you rank based on USJA rank. You can say "I am a 5th dan in the USJA and now I want to be a 5th dan in USA JUDO, certified by USA Judo." However, USA Judo is simply not going to do that.

I agree, they never have done that for either JA or JF. To be issued (earn) USA Judo rank, you have to work for it within the USA Judo promotion system.

However, as far as I know, if I show up with a USJA sandan at a USA Judo affiliated dojo, they won't make me take off my black belt (which as we know DID happen back in the day, so to speak), and if I join the dojo and join USA Judo, then they will recognize my USJA sandan as a starting point for time in grade for promotion to yondan in the USA Judo system. Of course, for a legit promotion I'd have to meet all the USA Judo time in grade/skill/etc. requirements to test for yondan.

Now, you change that central issue by saying if you wanted to go from 3rd in one group to 4th in another. While I am sure USJA will sell you any rank you wish, (OK, we both know) not everyone will. The legal issues alone prevent such a thing from happening. We ALL know most high ranking USJA black belts got them from Porter and as such simply do not have the skills the rank they hold infers.

I think I addressed this in my post above.

The claim that they are expected to "hold their own" against younger stronger players is fatuous at its face. No one expects that.

Of course it is with rare exceptions, in the USA at least.

One should expect that THEY BE ABLE TO PASS THE TEST FOR THE RANK. USJA's senior test is published and its requirements are plain. I took the entire text for 6th dan, ever single part of it. I took it when I was about 49 years old. I will take it again at 58 years old, at will, the second some of these high ranking people take theirs.

I agree, regardless of judo association.

This is all old stuff, and I am aware that nothing I say is going to change much. I was offered a 7th dan a few months back, which I turned down, because the value of USJA rank is about the same as my stack of "Juko-lie" papers I "earned" back in the day. The difference is, I simply do not speak of those ranks, or frankly any of this silly political posturing any more.

Very old, and very tired too. and very sad, really. But it's not something that is confined to USJA. As far as USJA rank being same as your Juko-lie papers, I wouldn't go that far. Things have to be taken on a case by case basis.

However, again, all USA judo is saying is, with proof, "Yes, you have (x) rank with USJA." And as Ben said "Ok, I know......"

My point with the "OK, I know" comment applies broadly. I mean, what should a sandan/yondan/godan/etc be able to do? Are the USJA rank requirements really a reflection of that? Who knows?

Anyway, it's a mess, and we just have to do the best we can to make sure some sort of legit judo gets passed on in our respective spheres of influence. Which for me is pretty damned small!

Ben

[BKR]

Just to be clear it seems USA Judo will reference your outside rank, but they will not reciprocally recognize it. At least that's what I was told when I called them. The part of this story I am still fuzzy on is 1) When this policy went into effect and 2) Is the policy toward JA different than any other org (JF, Kodokan, etc.)

Like Mark said, define terms. Reference I think is what I mean by recognize. Reference for what purposes? Time in grade for promotion in the USA Judo system? If it is accepted for that purpose, then they are de facto recognizing the rank. But recognize does NOT mean they will just issue you a USA Judo rank certificate AS IF you earned it in their system. They never did that, although I know they did issue DUPLICATE certificates that were labeled as such for the purposes I outlined in my previous post.

So you need to get them to define the parameters of the terms.

For example, is USJA rank no longer accepted for proof of rank at shiai that require a minimum grade to compete? I seriously doubt that.

[BKR]

If the paperwork is from a legit flow from the IJF, I suspect yes, they will accept it.

they have to recognize rank issued by another IJF affiliated NGB. If someone shows up from Judo Canada with a rokudan rank, they are recognized as such, but of course USA Judo isn't going to issue them a USA Judo rank certificate/promotion. No need to do so.

[Mtripp]

My point with the "OK, I know" comment applies broadly. I mean, what should a sandan/yondan/godan/etc be able to do? Are the USJA rank requirements really a reflection of that? Who knows?

If people were actually required to take the TEST USJA has in place for EVERY promotion then the problem would go away. Look it over sometime. However the simple fact is, people are being promoted all the time without taking and passing the test.

Take the gentlemen in the video. To be an 8th Dan in the USJA the testing requires you be able to perform at least 4 of the Kodokan Kata. I am willing to bet that skill is simply not there, which to me, invalidates the rank as the test clearly wasn't taken and passed.

But, as I said, I gave up on this long ago......

[Matt Phillips]

The important question is, is this the historical policy or has it changed. I asked the fellow who answers the phones there this question sometime last year, but he didn't really "get" the question.