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  1. JiuJitsuDad is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2014 7:54pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Elbow Digging for 10 year olds?

    Hey, it's me again, Bullies. What do you think of elbow digging for ten year olds? There was a girl relentlessly doing this to my daughter while rolling today. I thought it was kind of sad as this girl is a grey with stripes and my daughter recently was promoted to a four stripe white after a good showing in a tournament, so one would think they would be a bit above that in terms of guard passes. Both are ten, of similar size and stature, but the other girl generally has better technique than my child, but my child is a better athlete so it compensates for it.

    The problem is her mother is hyper competitive. She also has recently introduced her kid to a lot of forearm to the throat stuff too.

    At my daughter's old Alliance school, they never would've gone for this type of stuff, so I thought it was cheap (Then again, they never rolled nogi so I guess it's probably a bit easier to be 'snootier', if you will, about technique). However, after getting home and doing some research, I don't know anymore. Here in Florida, the majority of the rolling is nogi, and it's definitely a more physical game for the kids.

    I guess what I'm asking is should I feel kind of sour about the elbow digging? Or I should I just accept it as part of the landscape out here?

    Option A would probably involve me having a discussion with the instructor about it (he usually is taking heavy interest in watching my kid roll, but today he spent more time looking at the other kids and not mine. No biggie), and letting him know that if it doesn't stop, I can teach my daughter the same 'technique' and then we'll really see whose going to be ready for Abu Dahbi in ten years.

    Option B would be working with my daughter to tighten up her triangle set up from there and other alternative techniques. Or should I just combine the two and still push technique, but "when in Rome?"

    For the record, it didn't work too well, as my daughter was damn near crying but kept her guard through the pain for the most part. The forearm in the throat was a problem for exactly one class until we learned to render it effectively useless. This girl she is up against really is good enough to compete, but doesn't (and honestly, I'm guessing her mom is a big reason why she doesn't want to compete)...but if that's the case, don't act like they are handing out swords at the end of practice everyday. Go to the next Copa and get one.

    Sorry for venting here, but allow me to defer to the wisdom of the Bullies...what say you fine folk?
  2. ermghoti is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/01/2014 1:17pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ+Sanda

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't see the elbow digging guard pass at higher levels for the reason you cite: it exposes the passer to submissions.

    Considering this is a kid's class... talk to the coach?
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
  3. Devil is online now
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    His heart was visible, and the dismal sack that maketh excrement of what is eaten.

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2014 3:53pm

    supporting member
     

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To make sure I'm clear, you're talking about digging the elbow into the leg, not grinding the elbow on the face, right? Just want to be clear since you also mentioned grinding on the throat.

    I have two kids about that age who train. I wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered if another kid tried to pass their guard by grinding their elbow into the thigh. I don't see it as an issue at all. It's not going to injure my kids and it gives them an opportunity to deal with something different. So, they grow. I wouldn't sweat it at all.

    I tend to take crossfacing a little more personally but I try to keep my irritation in check. My son never used the crossface at all until he started rolling with a kid with more wrestling experience than him. That particular kid is (was) a grinder. His whole game revolved around grinding on my son's face until he moved where he wanted him.

    It really fucking irritated me, but instead of freaking out I helped my son figure out how to handle it. It got to the point where he could deal with it easily. Then he began using it himself. First, as payback and then more tactically when he needed it. After that kid got facefucked a few times he started backing off it himself and life is good. My kid doesn't crossface anyone in training unless they do it to him first. He has also successfully used the crossface a couple times when he needed it in tournaments.

    So, in short - learning happened. If it's not going to injure my kid I don't worry about it. Pain is part of the sport. Injury, we want to avoid.

    On the other hand, my son has been at it for a couple years though and has developed some skill and some grit. If he were brand new I'd probably feel differently. My daughter is less experienced than my son and I'd probably feel differently if it were her. Grinding on the leg, though.....wouldn't sweat it.
  4. sweats is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2014 4:37pm


     Style: Shotokan & BJJ

    2
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't have kids so I can't really comment on that aspect. However, I can attest to how easy it is to smack on a triangle when someone's whole guard passing strategy is to elbow grind, especially no gi. One of my favorite setups actually.

    Resist for a moment, let the leg start to loosen up to goad them into pressing even harder (they also often break posture to commit more weight at this point), let go completely and throw up the triangle. Other option I've exercised is just to cup my hand under their elbow, thereby blunting the pressure. Not a tractable longterm hand placement, but can be used if biding time is the goal.

    I'm guessing if your kid relentlessly triangles the other kid, she'll eventually stop. Also, just like anything else, she'll probably get used to it over time. Things that start painful can downgrade to annoying given enough time.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app
  5. JiuJitsuDad is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2014 8:57pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ermghoti View Post
    You don't see the elbow digging guard pass at higher levels for the reason you cite: it exposes the passer to submissions.

    Considering this is a kid's class... talk to the coach?
    Yeah. I did. He said he's going to put a stop to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devil View Post
    To make sure I'm clear, you're talking about digging the elbow into the leg, not grinding the elbow on the face, right? Just want to be clear since you also mentioned grinding on the throat.

    I have two kids about that age who train. I wouldn't be the slightest bit bothered if another kid tried to pass their guard by grinding their elbow into the thigh. I don't see it as an issue at all. It's not going to injure my kids and it gives them an opportunity to deal with something different. So, they grow. I wouldn't sweat it at all.

    I tend to take crossfacing a little more personally but I try to keep my irritation in check. My son never used the crossface at all until he started rolling with a kid with more wrestling experience than him. That particular kid is (was) a grinder. His whole game revolved around grinding on my son's face until he moved where he wanted him.

    It really fucking irritated me, but instead of freaking out I helped my son figure out how to handle it. It got to the point where he could deal with it easily. Then he began using it himself. First, as payback and then more tactically when he needed it. After that kid got facefucked a few times he started backing off it himself and life is good. My kid doesn't crossface anyone in training unless they do it to him first. He has also successfully used the crossface a couple times when he needed it in tournaments.

    So, in short - learning happened. If it's not going to injure my kid I don't worry about it. Pain is part of the sport. Injury, we want to avoid.

    On the other hand, my son has been at it for a couple years though and has developed some skill and some grit. If he were brand new I'd probably feel differently. My daughter is less experienced than my son and I'd probably feel differently if it were her. Grinding on the leg, though.....wouldn't sweat it.
    What she does is a combination of forearm across the throat (what time is it grip), and digging her elbows in the thigh, which she just started doing recently. The what time is it grip doesn't bother me as much, as this gym is owned by a Rob Khan disciple, so it is what it is. My daughter learned to counter that by turning her face toward the girl's arm (if I'm making sense here) while attempting to control and trap the arm for a sweep or sub setup. The elbows in the thigh thing bothered me because she went straight up Cobra Kai with the **** and I think it sucks that her mother wants her to win PRACTICE that badly.

    All of you are correct in that all it will do in the long run as long as I keep my cool is make my daughter better, but what bother's me about it is that if that's looked at as an acceptable 'technique' for dealing with someone stronger and/or more skilled than you in a daily practice setting, then you're just going to devolve the class down to glorified backyard fighting, complete with idiotic parents screaming like common Romans at the gladiator games. These classes cost too much time and money for that, IMO.

    This girl also has a wrestling background from going to Cozart's camps down here (Brandon High School Wrestling), and my daughter is just now getting used to really going for shots and takedowns, collar ties, all that fun stuff. I plan to place my daughter in Cozart's camp probably after basketball season.

    If I can post links now I'll link the rolls here. I think it was you who posted the rules of parenting, and I did violate the "Shut the **** up" rule. I wasn't over the top, but I did point out that it was cheap and if I taught my daughter to do that stuff, it would be a rough practice for a lot of kids.

    It just sucks when you have parents coaching and relentlessly goading their kids into thinking every roll is for the Pan Am Title. I get frustrated, as you can almost see the jealously and zealotry on the parents faces as they coach their higher ranked kids against my kid, you know, those parents who ask you multiple times how old your child is and say "I can't believe she's just a white belt!" on multiple occasions...funny thing is the parents who are over the top with it don't freaking train themselves. They never do.

    It starts at the 3:33 mark on the first video, and it's pretty much all throughout the second video. The guy coaching in the background on the second video is an assistant coach, not the actual instructor of the class.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcEM0Q_ywOQ

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SjddHGeaXY

    Quote Originally Posted by sweats View Post
    I don't have kids so I can't really comment on that aspect. However, I can attest to how easy it is to smack on a triangle when someone's whole guard passing strategy is to elbow grind, especially no gi. One of my favorite setups actually.

    Resist for a moment, let the leg start to loosen up to goad them into pressing even harder (they also often break posture to commit more weight at this point), let go completely and throw up the triangle. Other option I've exercised is just to cup my hand under their elbow, thereby blunting the pressure. Not a tractable longterm hand placement, but can be used if biding time is the goal.

    I'm guessing if your kid relentlessly triangles the other kid, she'll eventually stop. Also, just like anything else, she'll probably get used to it over time. Things that start painful can downgrade to annoying given enough time.

    Sent from my SPH-L720 using Bullshido - No BS MMA mobile app

    Thank you, sir! We're going to work on perfecting that triangle for when she does it with one arm, and work on the bump sweep when the other girl is using both elbows to dig in the thigh. My daughter actually worked the bump sweep on her pretty decently.
  6. gregaquaman is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2014 8:09am

    Join us... or die
     Style: mma /boxing/muai thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
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