Combat Con, BS or useful?

**lklawson** · Posted On: 4/12/2012 8:00am

Originally Posted by Coeloptera

So I should expect very little in the way of practical knowledge? I am really curious about bartitsu...or are any of these instructors any good with practical?

Separating this into a different post.

What do you mean by "bartitsu" and what do you mean by "practical?" On the one hand, you can say that Bartitsu is as "practical" as can be had when you combine Edwardian Judo/Jui-Jitsu with LPR Boxing and a cane method that looks more like a Mace. Further, most of the reconstructionists working on Bartitsu that I'm familiar with already have a solid foundation in several of the "base" arts which were combined into Bartitsu. So, yeah, you can get some pretty solid thumping skills out of it.

However, Bartitsu is sometimes taught as a historic artifact more than a modern RBSD cocktail mixup martial art and the threats an Edwardian/Victorian gentleman/gentlewoman might face are somewhat different than those of today. It depends on the instructor. Further, it also depends a lot on the students too. Bartitsu tends to appeal to the Steampunk movement and many of them are interested in a steamly martial art first and something they can use for self defense second.

I'm not sure which direction it would take when being taught at Combat Con but, as DdlR points out, you can only transmit so much of anything in a brief time period. How much Judo can you learn in an hour? How much LPR Boxing can you learn in an hour? La Canne? Now, combine the three and how much of that can you learn in even a 3 hour course? Maybe enough to get you interested and start up a Bartitsu club there at your Krav school or interested enough to go to other Bartitsu seminars.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Coeloptera** · Posted On: 4/12/2012 6:44pm

Originally Posted by lklawson

Stage Combat isn't real fighting. September is fast approaching but is there a local Stage Combat instructor you could take some lessons from? I know some Universities offer classes.

Is he experienced in Stage Combat? If he's not, then I'd look to take lessons from someone who's got experience in that area. I know I wouldn't take Stage Combat lessons from me (for instance).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

He's pretty darn experienced. On the order of 10+ years all over the country. So far so good. My real experience is translating over to at least some extent. I have at least had some training in hook swords from the little of bit of wu shu I tried from Sifu Sheng Meng when I lived in San Jose. Not the martial art for me, but it was interesting anyway.

4 weeks in and we're both using steel weapons for our blocking, so he definitely trusts me not to kill him. It's for Wasteland Weekend in September at Park City, CA.

I will say one of the hardest things is, when we're moving the speed up, is stopping myself from going for openings in his defense that I see. It causes little "hitches" in my movements, but it's getting better. I have to lose the fight, being the villain.

Oh, and they're on fire, too, but I've done fire performances before. I'm even one of the fire-safety officers for some of the other performers.

Ever notice a lot of people who've had training in real martial disciplines often tend to pick up other physical skills? At least a lot of the people I know do. I guess the mindset and attitude towards training translates over to other things pretty well.

About "bartitsu" well...that's why I ask. Ostensibly, it's supposed to be a "polyglot" combat style developed in the very late Victorian period incorporating elements from multiple styles from Japan, France, Switzerland, and England with an emphasis on boxing and savate elements for distance, then jujitsu and judo for close in work.

By "practical" I mean "could I use it in a real fight if I had to?". I'll admit, up until recently, that had been my standard of interest (before I got tagged for stage work).

Now I'm not in it, but I know a bunch of people in the Steampunk movement out here and it's certainly a thought to see who'd be serious enough to start a club, get some manuals, get some space (maybe hit up the Krav school and see), and knock it around a bit.

- Coeloptera

**Permalost** · Posted On: 4/12/2012 6:52pm

Originally Posted by Chili Pepper

I suspect you're referring to Snookie Sanchez.

Yeah, that's the one.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 4/12/2012 8:54pm

Originally Posted by Coeloptera

About "bartitsu" well...that's why I ask. Ostensibly, it's supposed to be a "polyglot" combat style developed in the very late Victorian period incorporating elements from multiple styles from Japan, France, Switzerland, and England with an emphasis on boxing and savate elements for distance, then jujitsu and judo for close in work.

Not really ostensible; that's just what it was, circa 1900 (although you're missing the walking stick element, which was about 40% of the mix). The revival follows basically the same proportions.

By "practical" I mean "could I use it in a real fight if I had to?". I'll admit, up until recently, that had been my standard of interest (before I got tagged for stage work).

The Bartitsu revival is a very "open source" thing; virtually every different instructor and club has their own take on the revival, their own goals and areas of interest, etc. Some are way into developing it into a fully "street practical" self defense method, others are far more involved with historical and/or recreational training. As a rough guide, the clubs that emphasize sparring and realistic resistance training are more likely to be offering what you're looking for; re. CombatCon, just remember the practical limitations of what can be conveyed to a large class of wildly varying abilities in a conference "taster" session.

Now I'm not in it, but I know a bunch of people in the Steampunk movement out here and it's certainly a thought to see who'd be serious enough to start a club, get some manuals, get some space (maybe hit up the Krav school and see), and knock it around a bit.
- Coeloptera

This Bartitsu Society article offers numerous hints and tips for people who want to set up their own experimental Bartitsu groups: http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/ba...-and-training/

**lklawson** · Posted On: 4/13/2012 7:22am

Originally Posted by Coeloptera

He's pretty darn experienced. On the order of 10+ years all over the country.

All well and good then. Glad to hear it.

I will say one of the hardest things is, when we're moving the speed up, is stopping myself from going for openings in his defense that I see. It causes little "hitches" in my movements, but it's getting better. I have to lose the fight, being the villain.

And that's one of the biggest differences/problems with Stage Combat as compared to "real" fighting. And it's not just you, but spectators too. Trained spectators frequently find themselves thinking, "Geez! The guy is totally wide open there, why isn't she stabbing him?!?!" It's one of the challenging parts of doing the choreography. The fight has to "tell a story," every one has to stay safe, and the audience either has to believe the fight is real or be willing to suspend disbelief for enjoyment ("Gun Kata" for instance). It is the mark of really top notch stage combat choreography when martially experienced spectators don't notice the openings, deliberate misses, and mistimings. It is, equally, the mark of poorly trained actors and/or mediocre fight choreography when even non-trained spectators can look at a fight scene and go, "Geez, why aren't they hitting each other?"

Ever notice a lot of people who've had training in real martial disciplines often tend to pick up other physical skills? At least a lot of the people I know do. I guess the mindset and attitude towards training translates over to other things pretty well.

Your learning style, perhaps even your "brain wiring," is adapted to learning physical skills. Dancers and gymnasts make great martial artists, or at least seem to learn quickly. They're used to hard physical work with exacting standards of body positioning.

About "bartitsu"

I think DdlR got this really well.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Permalost** · Posted On: 4/13/2012 10:58am

Originally Posted by lklawson

And that's one of the biggest differences/problems with Stage Combat as compared to "real" fighting. And it's not just you, but spectators too. Trained spectators frequently find themselves thinking, "Geez! The guy is totally wide open there, why isn't she stabbing him?!?!" It's one of the challenging parts of doing the choreography. The fight has to "tell a story," every one has to stay safe, and the audience either has to believe the fight is real or be willing to suspend disbelief for enjoyment ("Gun Kata" for instance). It is the mark of really top notch stage combat choreography when martially experienced spectators don't notice the openings, deliberate misses, and mistimings. It is, equally, the mark of poorly trained actors and/or mediocre fight choreography when even non-trained spectators can look at a fight scene and go, "Geez, why aren't they hitting each other?"

I think people waver between criticizing everyone for not being a deadly kung fu master, and criticizing everyone because they're a deadly kung fu master. Sometimes they're right to criticize it and sometimes they're not. Fight choreography involves telling a particular story and there's a likely chance that the character fighting is not some highly trained fighter, but those fights can be the most fun to watch too. Like when Indiana Jones fights that big Nazi, or when The Punisher fights the big Russian guy.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 4/13/2012 1:31pm

Originally Posted by Permalost

I think people waver between criticizing everyone for not being a deadly kung fu master, and criticizing everyone because they're a deadly kung fu master. Sometimes they're right to criticize it and sometimes they're not. Fight choreography involves telling a particular story and there's a likely chance that the character fighting is not some highly trained fighter, but those fights can be the most fun to watch too. Like when Indiana Jones fights that big Nazi, or when The Punisher fights the big Russian guy.

Yeah, Stage Combat/Fight Choreography is a 12 high wire balancing act and isn't half as easy as it sounds. I've learned just enough to respect good choreography and know why the top guys deserve their pay. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**captain zorikh** · Posted On: 4/13/2012 7:53pm

Yeah, I think this looks like a blast. Obviously the schedule is not filled in yet, but I would like to see how my years in the SCA and soon-to-be-recent experience at Battle of the Nations would prepare me for their armored longsword tournament.

On thing I have noticed about stage combat with medieval weapons is the common under-utilization of the shield. How many times have you seen the shield used more as a counterbalance than a defensive tool?

I also have noticed a great lack of the grappling arts in the stage combat community. It seems to be all about the punching and the karate/kung fu and the swords/quarterstaff/knife. I put together a show last year called "Hit the Mat" specifically to see if the grappling arts could be applied in a theatrical context, and yes, it worked. Due to my connections with the steampunk/jedi/renaissance/fetish world, I was able to do it at a steampunk/renaissance/fetish event, and went over like gangbusters.

So I guess we have to thank the steampunk/jedi/renaissance community for giving a new market to the study of more diverse martial arts in non-traditional venues.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 4/16/2012 8:53am

Good grappling can be hard to follow but, if done right, there are some throws which can be entertaining to watch. I recall seeing a clip from a 30s/40s B&W flick with, ims, James Cagney.

Google Fu: Ah yes, here it is. 1945. Blood on the Sun

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**captain zorikh** · Posted On: 4/17/2012 4:41am

Oh yeah, I love that scene.

Here is some of what I wound up doing with the grappling arts in a theatrical context...

Some would say that pro wrestling (the free form jazz of stage combat) sort of goes in this directions, and I have found that certain pro wrestling techniques, especially things like "chain wrestling" are very useful in this context.

Another thing I have wanted to see is a workshop on stage combat in armor that focuses on things like what new safety rules your have to have due to the armor (no "contact slaps" with steel gauntles to a bare face) and what rules you can break (if the armor is strong enough, you can really hit the other guy), how to utilize the sound of the armor to affect the scene, etc.