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  1. Robstafarian is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 2:38pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    He had the distance to fire five times [...] so yes a stronger gun would have helped. That or a head shot, which is difficult on a moving target.
    You didn't bother to google Mozambique Drill, did you?
  2. downtime is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 2:44pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    I personally have had very little in the way of official gun training, yet I can shoot to good effect.
    I almost glossed over this but I just reread the thread to ensure I hadn't missed anything. Dude if you think your an effective shooter with little or no training you sir have a FALSE sense of security when handling a firearm and are therefore a danger to yourself and everyone around you. paper targets dont attempt to close a ten foot distance and tackle you before you've drawn your weapon, cleared the holster, indexed a safety if it has one and transitioned onto the target. With a elevated heart rate due to stress and adrenaline. That thought proces is what causes ineffective use of firearms in crisis situations.

    IIF I only disagree with 1 thing you said. You stated guns accidentally going off... Ok this is a semantic and maybe more of a personl position but there is no such thing as an ACCIDENTAL discharge of a firearm there is only a NEGLIGENT discharge, due to peoples stupidity, lack of training, or just plain lack of respect for the weapon and its capabilities. Example see Bneterasedmynams comment about Im little trained but can shoot to good effect.
  3. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 2:45pm

    supporting member
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtime View Post
    So I guess back to the original question do you feel that most police officers are either unwilling or just dont have that mindset to discharge their weapon? Due to moral implications/ beliefs, or the rigamaroll that follows a discharge?
    I don't think that they are not wiling to fire. I think that it is the rigamaroll that follows the discharge. Be put on Admin leave, have everything you did second guessed by the FDLE, FBI, and then a jury when you ultimately get sued. Yeah, a lot easier to use some other means, if you have the option.

    But in a stressed situation, I don't see a lot pulling their guns instinctually. That is what needs to be drilled a lot more. But getting the training time in is hard.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  4. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 2:50pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post

    If you were in an incident that required you to defend yourself or your family, would you feel better protected with or without a weapon??
    I would prefer to have a weapon. However, I have successfully defended myself against an inmate who had a cane and I had nothing. His ability to utilize a weapon did not help him in any way. Matter of fact, it got him a lot more trouble then if he didn't have a weapon.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  5. downtime is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 2:52pm


     Style: Bjj, Muay Thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    You didn't bother to google Mozambique Drill, did you?
    I doubt he did. As much as I enjoy drilling the Mozambique drill and totally believe in it. I do feel the alternate failure drill of transitioning to the pelvic girdle under stress is a better option. (bigger target)
  6. downtime is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 2:54pm


     Style: Bjj, Muay Thai

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    I don't think that they are not wiling to fire. I think that it is the rigamaroll that follows the discharge. Be put on Admin leave, have everything you did second guessed by the FDLE, FBI, and then a jury when you ultimately get sued. Yeah, a lot easier to use some other means, if you have the option.

    But in a stressed situation, I don't see a lot pulling their guns instinctually. That is what needs to be drilled a lot more. But getting the training time in is hard.
    Cool agreed, thanks for the input. My State Trooper friend always talks about drilling weapon retention more as well.
  7. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 5:03pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by downtime View Post
    I almost glossed over this but I just reread the thread to ensure I hadn't missed anything. Dude if you think your an effective shooter with little or no training you sir have a FALSE sense of security when handling a firearm and are therefore a danger to yourself and everyone around you. paper targets dont attempt to close a ten foot distance and tackle you before you've drawn your weapon, cleared the holster, indexed a safety if it has one and transitioned onto the target. With a elevated heart rate due to stress and adrenaline. That thought proces is what causes ineffective use of firearms in crisis situations.

    IIF I only disagree with 1 thing you said. You stated guns accidentally going off... Ok this is a semantic and maybe more of a personl position but there is no such thing as an ACCIDENTAL discharge of a firearm there is only a NEGLIGENT discharge, due to peoples stupidity, lack of training, or just plain lack of respect for the weapon and its capabilities. Example see Bneterasedmynams comment about Im little trained but can shoot to good effect.
    Your argument is 100% strawman. It goes on a theory that you know how someone will react to stress or fear. Everyone is different in that respect. I have no desire to ever have to use a firearm to defend myself, but if that point does arise I will not hesitate regardless of YOUR opinion. I'm not a bad aim, but yes my aim might be off in an attack, but then again it might not, that's the unknown life gives us. Oh and here's how worried I am about having to use a gun, I don't even currently own one.
  8. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 5:04pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Robstafarian View Post
    You didn't bother to google Mozambique Drill, did you?
    I have been posting from a phone so no, but I will as soon as I get to my computer.
  9. Bneterasedmynam is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 5:09pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    I would prefer to have a weapon. However, I have successfully defended myself against an inmate who had a cane and I had nothing. His ability to utilize a weapon did not help him in any way. Matter of fact, it got him a lot more trouble then if he didn't have a weapon.
    First off congrats on defending against that attack. Now as far as canes go, they are light blunt weapons which does give opportunity to counter and close, more so than say a bat or knife. I have mixed feelings on gun disarmament because of the high possibility of discharge if when done well.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/10/2012 5:12pm

    staff
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bneterasedmynam View Post
    Your argument is 100% strawman. It goes on a theory that you know how someone will react to stress or fear. Everyone is different in that respect. I have no desire to ever have to use a firearm to defend myself, but if that point does arise I will not hesitate regardless of YOUR opinion. I'm not a bad aim, but yes my aim might be off in an attack, but then again it might not, that's the unknown life gives us. Oh and here's how worried I am about having to use a gun, I don't even currently own one.
    You really need to study what a logical fallacy is and not what you think it means. Stress is not a theory, reaction during stress is not a theory, and the only theory being addressed is how YOU FEEL, which is an assumption/theory until it happens, you will react under stress.
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