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  1. SteveM is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 7:16am

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     Central Texas Combatives Training Group Style: AMOK!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TMAs are on the decline, but this may be cyclical. Some points:

    -The kids provide the next wave, and I can tell you with certainty that the ninjas are resurgent. Since Lego came out with their new Ninjago sets and animated series it is all the 6-10yo talk about.

    -UFC is apparently trying to turn itself into the WWE, and as it morphs into a carefully scripted spectacle it will begin to lose the credibility of "real fighting". This will create a "reality vacuum" that TMAs will expand into.

    -Hollywood loves the "magic" of TMAs, so there will be never ending free promotion for them.

    -There may be even more "evolved" methods of training beyond MMA....:)
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 7:27am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    -UFC is apparently trying to turn itself into the WWE, and as it morphs into a carefully scripted spectacle it will begin to lose the credibility of "real fighting". This will create a "reality vacuum" that TMAs will expand into.
    People keep saying this, but no one shows where it is any different than Boxing. Boxing never turned into WWE even with all of its antics in the last 30 years.
  3. SteveM is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 7:54am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    People keep saying this, but no one shows where it is any different than Boxing. Boxing never turned into WWE even with all of its antics in the last 30 years.
    Like wrestling, no one thinks boxing is a stand-alone self-defense system anymore either. Contrast with MMA which a large population thinks has "street cred" at the moment. The antics and hijinks will be seen as "fake", and a more critical eye will be cast towards MMA's viability as a self-defense system.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 8:01am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveM View Post
    Like wrestling, no one thinks boxing is a stand-alone self-defense system anymore either. Contrast with MMA which a large population thinks has "street cred" at the moment. The antics and hijinks will be seen as "fake", and a more critical eye will be cast towards MMA's viability as a self-defense system.
    Okay, you are conflating multiple issues and there are just as many "antics and hijinks" in boxing. Your red herring of "stand-alone" and "self defense" had nothing to do with what I originally quoted. I see where this is headed enjoy yourself.
  5. ermghoti is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 8:04am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    I thought this was an interesting question to pose to you Bullshido...ites? (Bullshidians?)
    Bullies is the accepted collective noun for forumites here.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    because I've been lurking here long enough to know that most of you prefer MMA over TMA. (With the exception of a few arts, most notably Judo and Muay Thai.) I wonder, as the popularity of MMA spreads, will the general consensus of TMA's change? Will TMA become thought of more as a novelty or a cultural experience (or a great place to LARP)? What are your thoughts on how this may impact all of martial arts? Should the TMA's that don't modernize be punished?
    What? By whom? For what?

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    I'm a huge proponent of TMA and I know I'm in the minority here. (Last week I read that all the TMA forums are being merged because of a lack of traffic.) I find most MMA or MMA events to be restrictive, dishonorable, impure, and slightly barbaric. (Again, not expecting anyone here to agree with that OPINION)
    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    In spite of this, I do see the merits of training in it and I respect it as a martial art. I don't want this to turn into another MMA vs TMA debate. In fact, my point is that I don't understand why MMA and TMA can't coexist. If we all agree that its impossible to argue if one martial art is better than another, how can we argue that a group of martial arts is better than another group?
    "Martial" basically means related to war, the military, or warriors. An art which is better suited to a warrior is the better martial art. Coincidentally, the world's militaries train their soldiers in unarmed fighting based largely in sport derived arts.

    If we used the word "fighting" instead of "martial," it would demystify and clarify the argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    The reason I bring up the TMA vs. MMA is because most people will side with one or the other. Again, its not a question of which is better, it is a question of (to use a cliched phrase) "Why can't we all just get along?" But all too often the MMA supporters will argue that "TMA training methods and techniques are ineffective" while the TMA guys will say "MMA is a sport and obviously doesn't work in the street." Why can't we come to realize these are ridiculous generalizations and can't apply to every art under that category?
    One of those generalizations is mostly true, the other is mostly false, by the simplest of objective review.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    Which brings us back to my original argument, in the past 10 or so years I've been seeing a lot of TMA schools closing down and MMA schools opening up in its place. The chain schools here ditched their more TMA curriculum for the popular kickboxing and "submission grappling.
    MMA is popular and newish. It is a fad to which McDojos can hook their financial wagon. If it becomes less popular, or less mysterious/edgy, the the McSenseis will start offering belts in Pokemon or Sayan or Aikido or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    More people are adopting the idea of TMA's as "dead" or ineffective arts. Obviously TMA's are never going to become completely phased out but their influence and popularity could be reduced drastically. What's everyone's thoughts on the consequences if this were to happen?
    What consequences? Other than black belts in pretend fighting styles getting beaten up less? Wushu is doing fine, why couldn't the other "martial" arts do the same, or admit they are meditative arts like yoga?
    Quote Originally Posted by strikistanian View Post
    DROP SEIONAGI ************! Except I don't know Judo, so it doesn't work, and he takes my back.
  6. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 8:12am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dflanmod View Post
    I wonder what would happen to the MA industry if Dojos/gyms would quit telling prospective customers that their system would give them the ability to defend themselves?

    What if they all promoted their systems solely as a method of fitnes and fun and told people that what they were learning wasn't fighting? Would their systems suffer? Would their sytems cease to exist?

    People have many reasons they give for training, however in the back of peoples minds they really want to believe that they are learning something effective. So if a TMA's can continue to convince people that they are effective then TMA's have nothing to fear from MMA esque arts.

    In the end though, don't blame MMA for hurting TMA. Martial arts are a consumer product. Customers gravitate towards a product for many reasons. It could be better advertising or hype that initially drives momentum. It could be percieved value that drives the business.

    But I tell you what... Once the client base decides that you are not providing a quality product then you are fucked. The client moves towards the product that gives them what they want. You don't blame the competition for offering a better product, you blame yourself for failing to adapt to a changing market.

    I guess the real question is wether TMAs can withstand the rebranding of their arts as something other than a fighting system? Can they survive with a mrketing campaign based on fitness and culture as opposed to self defense/badassery?
    BINGO!!!! From the consumer/business/marketing perspective, there is really nothing more to say than is said above.
  7. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 8:22am

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OP's argument is a false dichotomy in my opinion. It's not MMA vs. TMA, rather it's martial arts practiced in the spirit of "aliveness" vs. "dead pattern" arts that are not.

    There are more than a few TMA's, like Kyokushin and Kung Fu arts that participate in San Shou and Sanda, that are trained in an alive manner.

    As more and more practitioners of these TMA arts enter the MMA fishbowl, like GSP and Cung Le, more MMA-centric people will seek these arts out.

    Please note, I'm well aware that both GSP and Cung Le crosstrained. I'm talking about exposure and the survival of TMA's in modern times.
    Last edited by jnp; 4/03/2012 8:31am at . Reason: forgot a comma
    Shut the hell up and train.
  8. W. Rabbit is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 8:39am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    I thought this was an interesting question to pose to you Bullshido...ites? (Bullshidians?)
    Bullshidi. Latin for the People of Bullshido, as opposed to Bullshidoka, which is someone who peddles bullshit budo.

    Quote Originally Posted by SpinKiK View Post
    I'm a huge proponent of TMA and I know I'm in the minority here. (Last week I read that all the TMA forums are being merged because of a lack of traffic.)
    For lack of people posting, not lack of traffic/viewing. It's understandable, most TMAers are yellow bellied cowards who don't ever want or just can't handle the feeling of pain.

    Plenty of MMAers also enjoy their TMA...I Can think of quite a few on this board, as well as quite a few UFC veterans. IF they don't constantly defend or try to validate their TMA, there is a good reason: they don't need to. Go read the TMA forum stickies to understand why. "Stop Crying: We've heard it all before.", etc.

    Did electronic music suddenly make classical music obsolete? DO people still train classical piano or guitar as well as digital mixing? Of course they do.

    TMAs are not going anywhere. **** man, my school is TINY and we only have enough students to pay the rent, but my instructor is good enough that I'd still just travel to his house to train with him, whether the school stayed open or not.

    Sifu trains me in Hung Ga the same way he'd train me in Marine close combat or khaybar techniques if I asked him. Sometimes we discuss herbal analgesic liniments...talk about traditional!

    Traditional does not, and never will mean "bad" or "going out of style", no matter how many people think that'd be a good thing. The best thing for everyone is just to keep fighting, mixing, fighting, mixing...many TMAs formed exactly that way.

    Heart and training right, with the right instructor, matters a hell of a lot more than what letter you put in front of your "MA".
    Last edited by W. Rabbit; 4/03/2012 8:45am at .
  9. Devil is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 8:41am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    TMA is going nowhere. (Yes, I'm really talking about McDojos or dead training or what have you. I'm going to say TMA to save time.) If you hang out at Bullshido every day, or at an MMA gym or whatever, it's easy to start believing everyone understands what you understand about martial arts. But they don't.

    The kids alone are enough to keep TMA schools thriving. For most of their parents, it's no different than sending their kids to soccer practice. It's just an activity to "build self esteem and confidence" and soforth. They don't give a **** if it sucks for fighting. Hell, a lot of them probably don't even realize there are any martial arts at all that suck for fighting.

    I think what TMA is losing is the young men in their prime who really want to learn how to fight. Those are the guys who fill up the BJJ schools, MMA schools, boxing gyms, etc. But they can get by without them. They just can't get by without them if they care about having the type of reputation that comes with producing real fighters.
  10. fakejudoka is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/03/2012 9:07am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please note, I'm well aware that both GSP and Cung Le crosstrained.
    I reference this sentence for mention of cross training. MMA is Mixed Martial Arts. What is it mixed of? My understanding is that is a mix of striking techniques learned from Traditional striking arts and grappling techniques learned from Traditional grappling arts. If you train at an MMA gym the instructor/coach has to have had training in these specific areas. I would even say that the instructor probably gained that knowledge from a TMA and brought it over. I'm not saying that MMA can't be learned or can't exist without TMA but the techniques came from somewhere. I think MMA is an evolution of martial arts in general. Everyone is always saying that one specific art is not complete and MMA is evolution to a more rounded art.
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