Are TMA's Becoming Obsolete?

**SpinKiK** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 12:00am

I thought this was an interesting question to pose to you Bullshido...ites? (Bullshidians?) because I've been lurking here long enough to know that most of you prefer MMA over TMA. (With the exception of a few arts, most notably Judo and Muay Thai.) I wonder, as the popularity of MMA spreads, will the general consensus of TMA's change? Will TMA become thought of more as a novelty or a cultural experience (or a great place to LARP)? What are your thoughts on how this may impact all of martial arts? Should the TMA's that don't modernize be punished?

I'm a huge proponent of TMA and I know I'm in the minority here. (Last week I read that all the TMA forums are being merged because of a lack of traffic.) I find most MMA or MMA events to be restrictive, dishonorable, impure, and slightly barbaric. (Again, not expecting anyone here to agree with that OPINION) In spite of this, I do see the merits of training in it and I respect it as a martial art. I don't want this to turn into another MMA vs TMA debate. In fact, my point is that I don't understand why MMA and TMA can't coexist. If we all agree that its impossible to argue if one martial art is better than another, how can we argue that a group of martial arts is better than another group?

The reason I bring up the TMA vs. MMA is because most people will side with one or the other. Again, its not a question of which is better, it is a question of (to use a cliched phrase) "Why can't we all just get along?" But all too often the MMA supporters will argue that "TMA training methods and techniques are ineffective" while the TMA guys will say "MMA is a sport and obviously doesn't work in the street." Why can't we come to realize these are ridiculous generalizations and can't apply to every art under that category?

Which brings us back to my original argument, in the past 10 or so years I've been seeing a lot of TMA schools closing down and MMA schools opening up in its place. The chain schools here ditched their more TMA curriculum for the popular kickboxing and "submission grappling. More people are adopting the idea of TMA's as "dead" or ineffective arts. Obviously TMA's are never going to become completely phased out but their influence and popularity could be reduced drastically. What's everyone's thoughts on the consequences if this were to happen?

**Bruiser** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 12:44am

My thoughts on this happening is that there will be less bullshit in MA.

MMA by nature is very nut up or shut up, and competitive. You could never run a legit MMA school without students going to grappling tournaments or have fighters, and those that do but lack legit instruction will get trampled underfoot by the true representatives of MMA, BJJ, and muay Thai.

Thusly, MMA weeds out the bad seeds.

***battlefields*** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 12:44am

Originally Posted by SpinKiK

I thought this was an interesting question to pose to you Bullshido...ites? (Bullshidians?) because I've been lurking here long enough to know that most of you prefer MMA over TMA. (With the exception of a few arts, most notably Judo and Muay Thai.) I wonder, as the popularity of MMA spreads, will the general consensus of TMA's change? Will TMA become thought of more as a novelty or a cultural experience (or a great place to LARP)? What are your thoughts on how this may impact all of martial arts? Should the TMA's that don't modernize be punished?

No, but those that don't evolve are doomed to perish. That's a great quote, battlefields, you should trademark that...

I'm a huge proponent of TMA and I know I'm in the minority here. (Last week I read that all the TMA forums are being merged because of a lack of traffic.) I find most MMA or MMA events to be restrictive, dishonorable, impure, and slightly barbaric. (Again, not expecting anyone here to agree with that OPINION) In spite of this, I do see the merits of training in it and I respect it as a martial art. I don't want this to turn into another MMA vs TMA debate. In fact, my point is that I don't understand why MMA and TMA can't coexist. If we all agree that its impossible to argue if one martial art is better than another, how can we argue that a group of martial arts is better than another group?

TMA and MMA can and do coexist. It is when one says, "we are superior" and the other says, "prove it", with the resulting bullshit, that breeds disharmony. Guess which one says which.

The reason I bring up the TMA vs. MMA is because most people will side with one or the other. Again, its not a question of which is better, it is a question of (to use a cliched phrase) "Why can't we all just get along?" But all too often the MMA supporters will argue that "TMA training methods and techniques are ineffective" while the TMA guys will say "MMA is a sport and obviously doesn't work in the street." Why can't we come to realize these are ridiculous generalizations and can't apply to every art under that category?

Generalisations like a thread on TMA and MMA? Look, if people stopped bullshitting paying customers with tales of bravery, badarsery and secret never before seen fatal magic technique-ery, then there would be no need to have a discussion. All arts would happily test their techniques and there would be a true "mixing" of martial arts. Instead, "TMA" have theoretical discussions of technique that devolve into bitching about teh deadlee, lineage and the "honour" misnomer, while "MMA" guys go, "**** it, see if it works!"

Which brings us back to my original argument, in the past 10 or so years I've been seeing a lot of TMA schools closing down and MMA schools opening up in its place. The chain schools here ditched their more TMA curriculum for the popular kickboxing and "submission grappling. More people are adopting the idea of TMA's as "dead" or ineffective arts. Obviously TMA's are never going to become completely phased out but their influence and popularity could be reduced drastically. What's everyone's thoughts on the consequences if this were to happen?

The world would be a better place.

**P Marsh** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 1:17am

The good one's aren't. Muay Thai, Kyokushin, Wrestling, Judo, and Boxing are all TMA that have held on to the adapt or die mentality. Most of these are just as old and in some definitions are older than what are commonly refereed to as "TMA" (TKD, Chun; **** tier MA's like that) yet comprised the backbone of MMA as a sport.

TMA is going no where but shitty MA's are finding it a bit harder to get by.

**Rivington** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 1:20am

Eh, depends. A lot of TMAs are tied to national identities or institutions that aren't going anywhere. Taiji practice is all but enforced by government edict in China, TKD is an Olympic sport, performance wushu is still a lot better looking on screen then MMA fighting, etc.

For the actual martial side of these arts, some are reintegrating live training into their art, some are just looking for kiddie stuff and spinning the same nonsense about honor and discipline that gets parents to turn over their checking account numbers. The latter will, with luck, fade away. TMAs and live training can go together; TMAs and big business should not.

**TheMightyMcClaw** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 2:03am

I don't really buy into the whole TMA/Not TMA paradigm, and generally try and look at any given fighting system in terms of how it fits into the grand tradition of fighting systems as a whole. As has been noted often, a lot of the "traditional" martial arts aren't actually all that old; Aikido, Ninjutsu, most karate systems, and virtually all Korean arts are 20th century products, and are much the junior of 19th century "kickboxing" systems (muay thai, savate) and the various styles of folk-wrestling which have evolved into contemporary grappling systems.
In the grand scheme of things, I'm *hoping* that the idea of martial arts being about wearing colorful belts, performing esoteric shadowboxing routines, and the other definitive tropes of "TMA" will be sort of a blip on the radar, a "hey, check out this weird fad from the late 20th century".
So to answer your question, they're not becoming obsolete. They started out that way.

**Demon Eyes** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 2:21am

From a general public view, promotion. More MMA schools are sprouting up due to the positive promotion they are getting. Now, I've trained in a TMA school. I enjoy learning TMA's. I'd much prefer to train in an MMA gym because I have an unhealthy habit of flinching when I see a fist flying towards my face, but I still enjoy learning TMA's because, quite frankly, I'm a geek when it comes to anything MA related.

Now if glossed over the incentive in live training and readily applicable techniques, then it comes down to promotion. Men and women of all ages are viewing a sporting event where these practitioners are going all out in a fight and, for the most part, are showing that they are all competent in defending themselves. People viewing this want to be able to defend their selves as well, so they go and sign up for the local MMA gym. MMA shows are great for promoting schools. Also, seeing how frantically popular MMA events have become, it makes sense that MMA schools are opening while TMA schools close. Just how the world works.

Now something struck me in your opening post. You used the word restrictive. I'm guessing you're using the argument that with all the rules imposed in MMA events (which, to be clear, is not many) that most TMA practitioners wouldn't be able to defend their selves properly because their art is used to maim, kill, chi destroy, whatever. I don't really believe this because these techniques aren't really a trade secret. I'm pretty sure if an MMA practitioner ever really feels the need to, they'll be able to attack targets such as the eyes, crotch, throat, etc.

However, let's look at it from this perspective. Say there is a some TMA master that has the ability to defeat a professional MMA fighter at the MMA fighter's own game. He will not however actually do this solely because he feels constricted by the rules (as most have used said excuse.) It is at this point that I call this person an idiot for they are missing a golden opportunity to promote their own school. If they were to actually compete and win that following scenario would ensue:
Person 1: "I can't believe Sensei Magic Fu was able to defeat (insert popular MMA fighter here). That was amazing."
Person 2: "Keep in mind though that Sensei was holding back. If he were not restricted by the rules then that fight would have ended A LOT faster!"
Person 1: "Oh man... You're right. I want to train at his school AT THIS MOMENT!"

Pretty much the age old.
Step 1: Learn art and open school.
Step 2: Promote school in the best way possible.
Step 3: ?
Step 4: Profit.

Honestly, i just wished that faulty argument would just lay in a ditch and die. I don't mean to insult you in anyway but I'm just really tired of hearing and/or reading the "Rules" argument.

**Stickybomb** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 3:31am

Aikido is for those who find yoga boring. A nice way of relaxation. Also I think it is very similar to koryu ju-jitsu which is as far as I know ancient. It was also included in a warrior training but not as a complete martial art. Correct me if I'm wrong please, because I still don't understand koryu arts.

(Doh, LemonEyes posted in between : ( )

**thrutch** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 4:14am

TMA schools will keep the flame burning on the basis that, if nothing else, a lot of parents are more comfortable sending their kids to a judo/karate/TKD class than one of those nasty, brutal cage fighting gyms. Hell, I know a few parents who are too scared to send their kids boxing in case they turn into brain damaged thugs.

Also, 28 years on, karate schools are still getting kids turning up because of this guy:

**dflanmod** · Posted On: 4/03/2012 6:41am

I wonder what would happen to the MA industry if Dojos/gyms would quit telling prospective customers that their system would give them the ability to defend themselves?

What if they all promoted their systems solely as a method of fitnes and fun and told people that what they were learning wasn't fighting? Would their systems suffer? Would their sytems cease to exist?

People have many reasons they give for training, however in the back of peoples minds they really want to believe that they are learning something effective. So if a TMA's can continue to convince people that they are effective then TMA's have nothing to fear from MMA esque arts.

In the end though, don't blame MMA for hurting TMA. Martial arts are a consumer product. Customers gravitate towards a product for many reasons. It could be better advertising or hype that initially drives momentum. It could be percieved value that drives the business.

But I tell you what... Once the client base decides that you are not providing a quality product then you are fucked. The client moves towards the product that gives them what they want. You don't blame the competition for offering a better product, you blame yourself for failing to adapt to a changing market.

I guess the real question is wether TMAs can withstand the rebranding of their arts as something other than a fighting system? Can they survive with a mrketing campaign based on fitness and culture as opposed to self defense/badassery?