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  1. #41
    JohnnyCache's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nils View Post
    Thatīs interesting. At my (in germany at that time obligatory) time in the army, primary goal was to injure enemys since an injured soldier binds others who have to treat his wounds.

    Relevant to this case was that they also taught shoot-to-wound when doing police-work (e.g. right now in Afghanistan and Kosovo), which as judoka_uk pointed out, is unrealistic.



    On the other hand 168 taser-related deaths in the US between 2009 and 2012 may relativize the term "non-lethal".

    BTW.: to get back to topic, in that list here (scroll down a bit) it becomes clear that tasers are used much more often on african-american and hispanic people (especially when calculated per capita).
    If shooting to wound is tried, it is more practical with scoped longarms. Patrol cops, SWAT cops, combat military, and military police could well be taught 4 different things based on equipment, training time, etc


  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by nils View Post
    @judoka_uk: Thatīs a good answer - and it shows that what I learned in the army is stupid (no surprise there). Still, in this example the suspect did not yet draw the supposed gun, so I thought that a warning shot or a nonlethal one would be in order. On the other hand Iīm not a policeman.

    Nonetheless, the tactic of just sending two cops (and thus giving the suspect hope of getting out of the situation by violence) seems wrong.
    Was your military experience Wehrdienst or were you a volunteer soldier in for 3/4+ years?

    I'm surprised the German military are teaching such dodgy stuff, but then again the primary function of soldiers is to be soldiers not policemen.

    Quote Originally Posted by nils View Post
    Seems like cops in the USA are much tougher than here.
    Here, protecting oneself has higher priority than protecting others.
    America is so different to the UK and Europe. Every man and his dog is potentially carrying a concealed pistol and packing a fully loaded AK 47 in his passenger seat.

    They have such widespread gun ownership and such relaxed gun laws that police are forced into assuming that every encounter with a civilian is a potentially armed encounter.

    This produces a completely different policing dynamic than in a country like the UK, where gun laws means that coming across someone with a handgun outside of the worst inner city areas is basically completely unheard of.

    I know Germany has gun laws that are much less restrictive than the UK, but compared to America, Germany is still a hyper-restrictive regime.

    But it is still fundamentally the average level of armament of the civilian population that conditions the approach and reactions of the police force. Higher civilian armament =tougher approach and much more forceful reaction. Lower civilian armament = lighter approach and less forceful reaction.

    At the end of the day the police have to protect their lives and American police have to often take extreme measures to protect their lives, because of the weaponry the civilian population has at its disposal.

  3. #43

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    Hey, try this typical teen justice: http://www.mrctv.org/sites/default/f...he/111504.html

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Was your military experience Wehrdienst or were you a volunteer soldier in for 3/4+ years?

    I'm surprised the German military are teaching such dodgy stuff, but then again the primary function of soldiers is to be soldiers not policemen.


    America is so different to the UK and Europe. Every man and his dog is potentially carrying a concealed pistol and packing a fully loaded AK 47 in his passenger seat.

    They have such widespread gun ownership and such relaxed gun laws that police are forced into assuming that every encounter with a civilian is a potentially armed encounter.

    This produces a completely different policing dynamic than in a country like the UK, where gun laws means that coming across someone with a handgun outside of the worst inner city areas is basically completely unheard of.

    I know Germany has gun laws that are much less restrictive than the UK, but compared to America, Germany is still a hyper-restrictive regime.

    But it is still fundamentally the average level of armament of the civilian population that conditions the approach and reactions of the police force. Higher civilian armament =tougher approach and much more forceful reaction. Lower civilian armament = lighter approach and less forceful reaction.

    At the end of the day the police have to protect their lives and American police have to often take extreme measures to protect their lives, because of the weaponry the civilian population has at its disposal.
    It's an understandable theory, but i feel differently. It's very much the clash of our drug culture, our mental health and social welfare systems, our court system, and our police culture.


  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    It's an understandable theory, but i feel differently. It's very much the clash of our drug culture, our mental health and social welfare systems, our court system, and our police culture.
    In the UK you can be an illegal immigrant with a string of convictions, be driving without a licence or insurance and whilst doing so run over and murder a 12 year old girl and only be jailed for four months and on release still avoid being deported.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-12007100

    In comparison America's laws on drugs, crime, welfare etc... look positively sane.

    Some things about America may be undesirable, but the European contintental socialist alternative is so nightmarishly worse it is unthinkable.

    The parents of that 12 year old girl have to wake up every day knowing their child was murdered by a man who should never have been in the country, should have already been in prison, only served four months behind bars and is now free to continue living in this country, claiming benefits from UK tax payers and driving without a licence or insurance.

    That can never be justified, but its the road America will go down if it follows continental European socialism.

    In a choice of least worst options you'd choose America over the tyranny of the EUSSR everyday.

  6. #46
    CNagy's Avatar
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    Well, I killed three innocent people and died once on that test. My reaction times were slightly better on shooting black armed suspects, and I think it was a white guy that did me in. Shot one black guy and two white guys; cellphones at odd angles.

    I don't know what, if any, significance that test really has. I do have a lot more appreciation for how objects at a glance can look like guns at certain angles, though.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    Was your military experience Wehrdienst or were you a volunteer soldier in for 3/4+ years?
    It was Wehrdienst plus a few months extra (f.w.l.d.) in which I helped training the guys going to Afghanistan by playing taliban (much fun).

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    I'm surprised the German military are teaching such dodgy stuff, but then again the primary function of soldiers is to be soldiers not policemen.
    The german army at all times had the tradition of training for the last war, instead of those to come. I believe that this tactic may make more sense in a "the-russians-are-coming"-scenario, where it was priority to hinder their advance till real armed forces arrive.


    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    It's an understandable theory, but i feel differently. It's very much the clash of our drug culture, our mental health and social welfare systems, our court system, and our police culture.
    Those things may explain why criminality develops, but those criminals having weapons certainly make the effects much worse - e.g. the last two amok-runs in germany were tried with a fireaxe and selfmade pipeboms, and ended with no one dead. If those guys had access to firearms, results most probably would have been much worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by judoka_uk View Post
    That can never be justified, but its the road America will go down if it follows continental European socialism.
    Just a bit of nitpicking: I do share your criticism, but I donīt see whatīs socialist about liberal jurisdiction.

    Policy in socialism was to send every criminal (and everyone considered not good for socialism) to prison, work-camps and brainwashing-institutions; in that respect, the american way of dealing with criminals is very socialist (think of boot-camps).
    Last edited by nils; 4/01/2012 5:46am at .

  8. #48

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    Aren't there cases of unjustified shootings of white people? Do they get so much media? Besides if you would look at the statistical chance for you (police) to get shot by someone odds are he will be black, so it seems only logical they will tend to be more scared of blacks than whites. I Dont see how racism plays a role here unless im mistaken about the majority of black violent criminals as opposed to white violent criminals. If you would do the same studdy (the shooting thing) with dogs, like which dog is more likely to attack you, you will shoot more innocent pitbulls and shepherds than you would poodles and spaniels, why is that? because there is a better chance that a fucking pitbull will attack you just like there is a better chance a black male will attack you. Look at the statistics. its not racism it is common sense. (I did not justify a shooting i was talking about the research)

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by erezb View Post
    Aren't there cases of unjustified shootings of white people? Do they get so much media? Besides if you would look at the statistical chance for you (police) to get shot by someone odds are he will be black, so it seems only logical they will tend to be more scared of blacks than whites. I Dont see how racism plays a role here unless im mistaken about the majority of black violent criminals as opposed to white violent criminals. If you would do the same studdy (the shooting thing) with dogs, like which dog is more likely to attack you, you will shoot more innocent pitbulls and shepherds than you would poodles and spaniels, why is that? because there is a better chance that a fucking pitbull will attack you just like there is a better chance a black male will attack you. Look at the statistics. its not racism it is common sense. (I did not justify a shooting i was talking about the research)
    So many things wrong here........

    Never mind. This thread is going to devolve into a shitfest of people calling each other racist.

  10. #50
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    "If social security is the holy grail of politics, race and crime is the holy grail of criminology. Touch it and you expose yourself to wrath and fury. For this reason, many criminologists are loath to examine the connection between race and crime outside the modern sociological paradigm that holds that race is a mere social construct - that is, something defined by any given society, ... a 'social invention'."

    -John Paul Wright, associate professor of criminal justice at the University of Cincinnati

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