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  1. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 3:25pm


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In Britain, when Arms have to be drawn and fired there has never been a policy of Shoot to Wound. This is a common appeal by the families of those who have been fatally shot - even when they've been Armed.

    The only recent incident which caused much concern (quite Rightly) was the Police shooting of Juan Charles de Menezes. Why? Well, the Police firearms teams had been taking advice from the Israelis on the need to fire into the Brain to ensure the disabling of any Terrorist threat. This was Kratos. It was wrong and unnecessary as Britain already has the SF expertise. The initial misdirection was Fine and Operationally necessary BUT when dishonestly defended, the LIE could not be defended. The public lost much trust.

    The Army have always shot with Finality. They have a pamphlet "Shoot to Kill" - not quite what the layman thinks. As a general rule, the Soldier/Armed Policeman does NOT shot to wound. It's impractical, though I grant you Emilio Estevez brilliantly shot the gun out of an opponent's hand in "Young Guns" but that was Hollywood.

    youtube does show at least 1 instance of a brilliant shooting by a US Police sniper to take the gun out the hand of a baddie so other Police could jump him whilst disarmed. That, though is rare improvisation.

    Like the US, our Police have begun to use the Tazer to incapacitate without resort to lethal force. Context and case-by-case seems the approach.

    Digression over. Sorry.
  2. nils is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 3:46pm


     Style: FormerShotokan,Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Army have always shot with Finality. They have a pamphlet "Shoot to Kill" - not quite what the layman thinks.
    Thatīs interesting. At my (in germany at that time obligatory) time in the army, primary goal was to injure enemys since an injured soldier binds others who have to treat his wounds.

    Relevant to this case was that they also taught shoot-to-wound when doing police-work (e.g. right now in Afghanistan and Kosovo), which as judoka_uk pointed out, is unrealistic.


    Like the US, our Police have begun to use the Tazer to incapacitate without resort to lethal force. Context and case-by-case seems the approach.
    On the other hand 168 taser-related deaths in the US between 2009 and 2012 may relativize the term "non-lethal".

    BTW.: to get back to topic, in that list here (scroll down a bit) it becomes clear that tasers are used much more often on african-american and hispanic people (especially when calculated per capita).
    Last edited by nils; 3/31/2012 3:54pm at .
  3. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 4:21pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nils View Post
    @judoka_uk: Thatīs a good answer - and it shows that what I learned in the army is stupid (no surprise there). Still, in this example the suspect did not yet draw the supposed gun, so I thought that a warning shot or a nonlethal one would be in order. On the other hand Iīm not a policeman.

    Nonetheless, the tactic of just sending two cops (and thus giving the suspect hope of getting out of the situation by violence) seems wrong.
    Warning shots? We don't do that. Each round fired is a possible death. Shoot to wound? That's movie and popular media BS. Hell pistol rounds to the center of mass are not assured stoppers.

    As to only "sending two cops"...you respond with what you have. The idea that you can wait and rally up a platoon of cops and still be able to locate the criminal is a non-starter.
  4. nils is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 4:25pm


     Style: FormerShotokan,Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    As to only "sending two cops"...you respond with what you have. The idea that you can wait and rally up a platoon of cops and still be able to locate the criminal is a non-starter.
    Seems like cops in the USA are much tougher than here.
    Here, protecting oneself has higher priority than protecting others.
  5. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 4:27pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wait till you see a gun....like this cop did?




    FF to 1:02 notice the "hand moving to the waistband". How long would you wait to see what comes out?

    This sort of thing moves FAST. By the time you see and mentally process "yes its a gun" you are getting shot. That's why so many people reaching for their cell phone or wallet while the police are screaming and pointing pistols at them get shot.
    Last edited by tgace; 3/31/2012 4:40pm at .
  6. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 4:37pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nils View Post
    Seems like cops in the USA are much tougher than here.
    Here, protecting oneself has higher priority than protecting others.
    It's not a matter of being tough. The call probably goes like this:

    -Call from 911 goes out to meet a victim of an armed robbery. A description of the suspect is given out.

    -Nearby officers start responding to the area...one typically assigned to meet the victim while others start checking the area for the suspect.

    -A car sees people matching the description. Either the suspects start running the moment they see a squad car or the officers stop and detain them for investigation.

    -The suspects do what they do. Here the cops say they ran (i think) and one reached for his waistband (so they say). I don't know what the "set-up" prior to shoot was. Were they in a foot chase and the kid reached for his waist? Was the kid stopped at gun point and made a move? Was there something else that happened? I don't know.

    It could have been a bad shoot...It may not have been, situation depending. The end result (unarmed) does not automatically make the LE action unjustified.



    This guy was brandishing a cell phone.
    Last edited by tgace; 3/31/2012 4:41pm at .
  7. V8Eater is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 4:41pm


     Style: BJJ, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Law enforcement service is voluntary. Choosing to be in law enforcement is a decision to take on certain responsibilities. When one takes on responsibilities which include a duty to protect people's safety, I believe we can hold that person to a higher standard in terms of certain behaviors.

    Just as I believe a law enforcement officer should control of his or her emotions and react to protect the safety of innocent bystanders, I believe it is reasonable to expect that people should not be shot unjustly. Controlling emotion in the face of fear, to either protect safety by appropriate offense or defense, is something I would like to count on in a law enforcement officer.

    I believe fire personnel and medical personnel are calleed upon to suppress emotional influences in order to perform their duties, and I believe the same should be true of law enforcement.

    Should one be so uncomfortable with confronting a potentially armed person that may have committed a crime that innocent people are getting shot, as may not have happened in the particular instances in the cases cited in this thread, but may be indicative of situations that do occur, perhaps the particular officers involved should seek other lines of employment.
  8. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 4:46pm

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     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    Warning shots? We don't do that. Each round fired is a possible death. Shoot to wound? That's movie and popular media BS. Hell pistol rounds to the center of mass are not assured stoppers.

    As to only "sending two cops"...you respond with what you have. The idea that you can wait and rally up a platoon of cops and still be able to locate the criminal is a non-starter.
    Another reason you don't shoot to wound is the legs are also potentially lethal zones - wound paths thru the thighs in particular, potentially shattering a large bone or perforating a large artery, can be as bad as many center of mass shots
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  9. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 4:50pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nils View Post
    Seems like cops in the USA are much tougher than here.
    Here, protecting oneself has higher priority than protecting others.
    There are a lot of cops here that think they're in detroit .... and not even the real Detroit, paul verhoven's detroit.

    They're assholes. Fact. And the good cops drag themselves through the **** defending them.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  10. tgace is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/31/2012 4:51pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache View Post
    Another reason you don't shoot to wound is the legs are also potentially lethal zones - wound paths thru the thighs in particular, potentially shattering a large bone or perforating a large artery, can be as bad as many center of mass shots
    Very True. When you fire a gun at someone every shot is potentially lethal. There is no "shooting to wound". There are shots that just didn't happen to kill. By the same token..pistols are not one shot stoppers most of the time either.
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