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  1. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/28/2012 2:51am

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     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Zen fromFA View Post
    With that said, no this isnt your first attack option.The attacker must be closer for you to land this than he would have to be for a low leg kick. Try it.
    ???

    The teep as push kick or blocking kick IS the longest distance kick you have if you want to stay directly in front of your opponent in a straight position.
    The side kick has a longer reach, but your boxing options are completely nullified in that action.

    Low kicks are short range kicks that place you (almost) in boxing range of your opponent.

    The name "Teep" is learned almost immediate when you start Muay Thai, because it takes a very short time to say it, compaired to "push kick". I don't know the Thai names of the other kicks, but "teep" stays with you from day one.


    Where did you learn Muay Thai and who was the Kru?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  2. Chen Zen fromFA is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/28/2012 6:58pm


     Style: JKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs View Post
    ???

    The teep as push kick or blocking kick IS the longest distance kick you have if you want to stay directly in front of your opponent in a straight position.


    Low kicks are short range kicks that place you (almost) in boxing range of your opponent.




    Where did you learn Muay Thai and who was the Kru?
    Hello Rene,

    In the first quote you mention "If you want to stay directly in front of your opponent"
    As a counter fighter, I almost never want this position. Im constantly working towards the outside of my opponents lead, trying to work to his back is optimal. By doing this, it makes slipping and countering easier.
    This also leads to,me personally, kicking the lead leg often. This isnt so much for damage but to attack his balance and footwork so that I can gain ground at an angle while the opponent is turning to meet me. From my experience, (which I will address momentarily) Thai fighting is a power style and as a counter fighter that doesnt always fit my needs, so I dont use this kick in the textbook Muay Thai sense.

    As for the thrust kick in itself, I dont use it. The position it leaves you in as well as the telegraphing and time it takes to execute(compared to other strikes) doesnt leave you in an optimum position for self defense, IMO. As for the reach advantage, this is only from the thrust forward and not the kicking position. Your foot has to cover more distance to travel to an opponents chest than it does to attack his knee.Therefore, its the first available weapon to a kicker, not just because the distance of the opponent, which plays a part, but the distance the foot must travel to be effective.

    Now, when you say Kru I assume you mean Sensei, or Sifu or instructor. I trained under Matthew Sweeney, Cincinnati, Oh Who was also my Moo Duk Kwan Instructor. Since Most all of his Muay Thai students were also Moo Duk Kwan students, there was no terminology lessons. They already had that in the TKD class. So while you learned teep I learned thrusting front kick.

    CZ
  3. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/29/2012 5:43am

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     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Zen fromFA View Post
    Hello Rene,

    In the first quote you mention "If you want to stay directly in front of your opponent"
    As a counter fighter, I almost never want this position. Im constantly working towards the outside of my opponents lead, trying to work to his back is optimal. By doing this, it makes slipping and countering easier.
    This also leads to,me personally, kicking the lead leg often. This isnt so much for damage but to attack his balance and footwork so that I can gain ground at an angle while the opponent is turning to meet me. From my experience, (which I will address momentarily) Thai fighting is a power style and as a counter fighter that doesnt always fit my needs, so I dont use this kick in the textbook Muay Thai sense.

    As for the thrust kick in itself, I dont use it. The position it leaves you in as well as the telegraphing and time it takes to execute(compared to other strikes) doesnt leave you in an optimum position for self defense, IMO. As for the reach advantage, this is only from the thrust forward and not the kicking position. Your foot has to cover more distance to travel to an opponents chest than it does to attack his knee.Therefore, its the first available weapon to a kicker, not just because the distance of the opponent, which plays a part, but the distance the foot must travel to be effective.

    Now, when you say Kru I assume you mean Sensei, or Sifu or instructor. I trained under Matthew Sweeney, Cincinnati, Oh Who was also my Moo Duk Kwan Instructor. Since Most all of his Muay Thai students were also Moo Duk Kwan students, there was no terminology lessons. They already had that in the TKD class. So while you learned teep I learned thrusting front kick.

    CZ
    So let me get this straight: a Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondoka named Matthew Sweeney trained you in Muay Thai/Dutch-style Kickboxing.

    Sorry to say, but I couldn't compare my Kyuk Too Ki training (under Muay Thai ruleset instead of SanDa ruleset) to real Muay Thai, so Taekwondo under Muay Thai ruleset =/= Muay Thai.

    BTW, your "IMO" is completely incorrect
    1) best stance is a straight stance towards your opponent, especially if you stand at an angle of his centerline
    2) teeps (stopping and thrusting ones) are done to the stomach area, not the chest (soft tissue impacts have more stopping power because of the discomfort and pain)
    3) teeps are absolutely NOT telegraphed at all
    4) Muay Thai is not a "power style". Have you seen averige Thai people, they are too small to gain power from size. Power is generated by a combination of speed and hip torque.
    5) a "blocking" teep isn't thrusted toward your opponent, the leg is stretched horizontally at the moment that the opponent advances towards you and runs into your teep.
    6) The reach of the teep comes from the fact that the averige leg is longer than the averige arm. Since teeps are done to the gut, the leg is almost horizontal, giving it its longest reach compared to a low kick or a head kick.

    But besides the above corrections, your explination of Muay Thai is 100% correct. [/SARCASM].


    I'm going to give you some good advice: forget everything you learned about Muay Thai from your Taekwondo instructor. Go to a real Muay Thai gym and you will find out that everything you know (about MT) is wrong.

    At this moment I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just found some wrong instruction (I have the same experience), but go re-educate yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  4. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2012 12:21pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Zen fromFA View Post
    As for the thrust kick in itself, I dont use it. The position it leaves you in as well as the telegraphing and time it takes to execute(compared to other strikes) doesnt leave you in an optimum position for self defense, IMO.
    IMo its better than the side kick or round kick in therms of the position it leaves you in. If someone grabs my foot when I kick them, my first reaction is to clinch the back of their head with one hand (to prevent a serious slam) and start hitting with the other arm. From the teep position, either hand can do this. Also, if they want to sweep, then the back of the leg is ideal for them, and they're given this with the roundhouse or side kick standing leg position. Plus, you can step forward and hit with either arm.
  5. Chen Zen fromFA is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2012 11:16pm


     Style: JKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs View Post
    So let me get this straight: a Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondoka named Matthew Sweeney trained you in Muay Thai/Dutch-style Kickboxing.

    Sorry to say, but I couldn't compare my Kyuk Too Ki training (under Muay Thai ruleset instead of SanDa ruleset) to real Muay Thai, so Taekwondo under Muay Thai ruleset =/= Muay Thai.

    BTW, your "IMO" is completely incorrect
    1) best stance is a straight stance towards your opponent, especially if you stand at an angle of his centerline
    2) teeps (stopping and thrusting ones) are done to the stomach area, not the chest (soft tissue impacts have more stopping power because of the discomfort and pain)
    3) teeps are absolutely NOT telegraphed at all
    4) Muay Thai is not a "power style". Have you seen averige Thai people, they are too small to gain power from size. Power is generated by a combination of speed and hip torque.
    5) a "blocking" teep isn't thrusted toward your opponent, the leg is stretched horizontally at the moment that the opponent advances towards you and runs into your teep.
    6) The reach of the teep comes from the fact that the averige leg is longer than the averige arm. Since teeps are done to the gut, the leg is almost horizontal, giving it its longest reach compared to a low kick or a head kick.

    But besides the above corrections, your explination of Muay Thai is 100% correct. [/SARCASM].


    I'm going to give you some good advice: forget everything you learned about Muay Thai from your Taekwondo instructor. Go to a real Muay Thai gym and you will find out that everything you know (about MT) is wrong.

    At this moment I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just found some wrong instruction (I have the same experience), but go re-educate yourself.
    Rene,

    I understand that a TKD instructor probably isnt the best Thai instructor, But it was the best of what was available to me at the time. My time studying Muay Thai was limited and also over a decade ago. So I agree that my understanding of Muay Thai isnt the best. With that said I have to address a few of the things you said.

    I agree with your number one point about the stance. All I said is that I dont want to be directly in front of him, where a thrusting kick or front kick will often leave you.

    Your second point, is the same way we did a front kick in TKD.

    Your third point. Its not telegraphed. Sorry but ALL kicks are telegraphed, some more than others but all kicks are telegraphed. It cant be helped.

    Your fourth point. Not a power style. Really? Military trained, widespread MMA Use, knees elbows and round kicks. Not power? I gotta disagree. Just because Thai guys are small doesnt mean it isnt a power style. It just means they are small guys.

    Fifth point. Sounds good. What you call "Blocking kick" we call "Stop Hit" in JKD.

    Sixth point. Yeah thats the furthest reach in a straightline in front of you. If your foot started in that position then I would agree that its your first option to strike however your foot is on the floor. When you talk about efficiency then you have to consider economy of motion. The shortest path to the closest target. The length of the path that your foot has to travel to an opponents solar plexus is nearly twice that of a knee kick. Therefore it takes twice as long and twice the energy.

    Permalost,

    Your reaction sounds good in theory but what if the man who has your foot, gator rolls your leg or drops and performs the double leg? What you describe sounds good for a thai fight but not necessarily for SD.

    You say you would use this before round house or side kicks. Well, if thats the way you do things, but to me theres to much directional committment from a thrusting kick. Your are going to come down forward as your foot retreats the strike zone.. A round house or side kick, I can step forward during the attack, remain stationary or move back when my foot is retreating the strike zone.For instance. If I kick the opponents lead leg on the outside with a roundhouse, I can drop my foot there, pivot and move to it, putting me at my opponents side at a fairly straight stance, forcing him to turn and meet me, or step back. This gives me several advantages. Directional committment being the biggest. He HAS to move to keep from exposing his back. This movement is anticipated and taken advantage of whenever possible. Im not at much risk of a strike here either, as its either going to come from his outside, or its going to be as he retreats. From this position, he doesnt have much power or opening for either. His best option is to drop and go for a single or double Or simply back out and square up.

    If the kick didnt land effectively, I can still hold my ground where I am or retreat a step as my foot returns from the strike. In the very least, it didnt leave me right in front of him. I dont want that position. I dont want to trade punches, I want to counter and walk away in SD situations.
  6. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2012 1:12am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Zen fromFA View Post
    Permalost,

    Your reaction sounds good in theory but what if the man who has your foot, gator rolls your leg or drops and performs the double leg? What you describe sounds good for a thai fight but not necessarily for SD.
    Those things you describe are at least as easy to apply when the foot/hip are sideways, as in a round or side kick.

    You say you would use this before round house or side kicks.
    Depends on the situation. I like side kicks fine, and have used them to good effect in competition, with and without weapons. But the side kick criticisms are valid, IMO.
    Well, if thats the way you do things, but to me theres to much directional committment from a thrusting kick. Your are going to come down forward as your foot retreats the strike zone.. A round house or side kick, I can step forward during the attack, remain stationary or move back when my foot is retreating the strike zone.For instance. If I kick the opponents lead leg on the outside with a roundhouse, I can drop my foot there, pivot and move to it, putting me at my opponents side at a fairly straight stance, forcing him to turn and meet me, or step back. This gives me several advantages. Directional committment being the biggest. He HAS to move to keep from exposing his back. This movement is anticipated and taken advantage of whenever possible. Im not at much risk of a strike here either, as its either going to come from his outside, or its going to be as he retreats. From this position, he doesnt have much power or opening for either. His best option is to drop and go for a single or double Or simply back out and square up.
    I don't really see how you don't have any control of where your foot goes after a front kick. You can step forward and hit with either hand (unlike side kick), you can step back after the kick (one thing I like is a lead push kick, stepping back and delivering a back leg front kick with power). Also, one of the most common ways I practice the push kick these days is using it while stepping with FMA triangular footwork, so basically stepping diagonally forward or backwards in rhythm with kicking technique.

    If the kick didnt land effectively, I can still hold my ground where I am or retreat a step as my foot returns from the strike. In the very least, it didnt leave me right in front of him. I dont want that position. I dont want to trade punches, I want to counter and walk away in SD situations.
    I want to present all of my weapons towards my opponent, so they should fear a sudden strike from any limb, and so that all my weapons can act like spiked shields against oncoming limbs.
  7. Chen Zen fromFA is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2012 2:16am


     Style: JKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Permalost View Post
    Those things you describe are at least as easy to apply when the foot/hip are sideways, as in a round or side kick.


    Depends on the situation. I like side kicks fine, and have used them to good effect in competition, with and without weapons. But the side kick criticisms are valid, IMO.

    I don't really see how you don't have any control of where your foot goes after a front kick. You can step forward and hit with either hand (unlike side kick), you can step back after the kick (one thing I like is a lead push kick, stepping back and delivering a back leg front kick with power). Also, one of the most common ways I practice the push kick these days is using it while stepping with FMA triangular footwork, so basically stepping diagonally forward or backwards in rhythm with kicking technique.


    I want to present all of my weapons towards my opponent, so they should fear a sudden strike from any limb, and so that all my weapons can act like spiked shields against oncoming limbs.
    Permalost,

    While its quiet easy to do those things from a side oriented foot or waist as you mentioned the difference is thats its harder to catch the kicks, the roundhouse in particular. I too have used the side kick effectively, but I dont use it often as I dont find myself in that position as much. In fact Ive used all of these kicks successfully, front kick included. However take note of what you mention and you will see why I dont use it.In nearly every example you listed you are moving forward.

    Thats not a bad thing in itself, but when it almost ALWAYS follows a certain technique, then it becomes a problem. As a counter fighter, directional committment plays a large role in the way I fight. Most people arent thinking about defense as they move towards an opponent and even less think about it when they are striking. If I know where that movement is going, then I can react to it accordingly.

    Also I wanted to address some of the technical description you give. The FMA triangular footwork, coming in at an angle. This was what I was trying to get across with the lead leg kick example. The kick lands, and you come across and forward to meet it, putting you on the outside of your opponents lead. The pivot allows you to turn towards him, "Squaring you up" on his outside, allowing you to exploit his centerline.

    You also said"You can step forward and hit with either hand unlike side kick.." You can do this from side kick. Stepping side kick or shuffle side kick will gain your step forward, and as the foot comes down from contact, you have options, though limited, with both hands. From the lead you have rear elbow, backfist, or ridgehand. Then from rear hand you have (for all you karateka) reverse punch, or straight punch, Rear uppercut, Palm thrust, whatever your flavor. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying its a desirable position, or any better than where front kick leaves you, just saying that there are options.
    Humbly,
    CZ
  8. ChenPengFi is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2012 4:15am

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     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You don't know **** and insist on commenting. That's why you are infamous.
    You, shithead, are arguing MT from ignorance.
    Kru and teep are terms you likely learn in your first class.
    You are unqualified to comment on MT, please stfu.
  9. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    Posted On:
    5/30/2012 6:47am

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     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Zen fromFA View Post
    Your third point. Its not telegraphed. Sorry but ALL kicks are telegraphed, some more than others but all kicks are telegraphed. It cant be helped.
    All kicks are telegraphed in the same way as all punches are telegraphed:
    If you know where to look, your opponent will not surprise you on a 'single technique attack". With punches, it are the shoulders that telegraph the motion.

    It's a game of timing, range and set-up that will deminuish the time of the visible start of any technique and its impact. That's why strategy, combo's and set-up in hand-2-hand combat were developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Zen fromFA View Post
    Your fourth point. Not a power style. Really? Military trained, widespread MMA Use, knees elbows and round kicks. Not power? I gotta disagree. Just because Thai guys are small doesnt mean it isnt a power style. It just means they are small guys.
    The darkend letters have absolutely nothing to do with a style being a "power" style or a "speed" style.
    It's the process of generating the impact force in a "kickboxing" style that defines a style as a "power" or "speed" style.

    Savate is a pure speed style, yet it is a part of the French Militairy h2h system.

    The force of Muay Thai is generated by a combination of speed, technique (swinging the leg basebat style) and torque of the hip. While it comes over as a power style because of the use of the shin as the striking area, the power generation is build upon speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Zen fromFA View Post
    Sixth point. Yeah thats the furthest reach in a straightline in front of you. If your foot started in that position then I would agree that its your first option to strike however your foot is on the floor. When you talk about efficiency then you have to consider economy of motion. The shortest path to the closest target. The length of the path that your foot has to travel to an opponents solar plexus is nearly twice that of a knee kick. Therefore it takes twice as long and twice the energy.
    Solar plexus isn't part of the stomach area...at least not in Europe.

    Timing and Range make the differance here: why would I wait until my opponent is in striking range before starting my counter attack? Timing would suggest that I start my counterattack when my opponent is just outside my teep range, but proceding toward it, so that impact is accomplished at the maximum distance from me, thus giving me some "breathing space".
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
    You know you are crazy about BJJ/Martial arts when...
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
    Quote Originally Posted by jk55299 on Keysi Fighting Method
    It looks like this is a great fighting method if someone replaces your shampoo with superglue.
    The real deadly:
  10. Permalost is offline
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    pro nonsense self defense

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    Posted On:
    5/30/2012 11:46am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chen Zen fromFA View Post
    Permalost,

    While its quiet easy to do those things from a side oriented foot or waist as you mentioned the difference is thats its harder to catch the kicks, the roundhouse in particular.
    In sanshou, roundhouse kicks were some of the most commonly caught kicks that ended in successful takedowns, in my experience at least. Of course the low ones are not caught often though, but they present their own problems. My old sifu drilled us to throw a right cross immediately as a low kick defense and if it landed while the other guy was on 1 foot and kicking it was awesome.

    However take note of what you mention and you will see why I dont use it.In nearly every example you listed you are moving forward.

    Thats not a bad thing in itself, but when it almost ALWAYS follows a certain technique, then it becomes a problem. As a counter fighter, directional committment plays a large role in the way I fight. Most people arent thinking about defense as they move towards an opponent and even less think about it when they are striking. If I know where that movement is going, then I can react to it accordingly.

    Also I wanted to address some of the technical description you give. The FMA triangular footwork, coming in at an angle. This was what I was trying to get across with the lead leg kick example. The kick lands, and you come across and forward to meet it, putting you on the outside of your opponents lead. The pivot allows you to turn towards him, "Squaring you up" on his outside, allowing you to exploit his centerline.
    The triangular footwork isn't only forward. Its also backwards at 45 degree angles. Stepping back this way forces the other person to adjust their position to face you properly, so you sometimes get a moment where you can land your kick. This is actually a typical thing in karate and kung fu, using the cat stance or whatever you want to call it, where stepping on one of these angles gives you a good target to kick if the opponent steps in to attack.

    You also said"You can step forward and hit with either hand unlike side kick.." You can do this from side kick. Stepping side kick or shuffle side kick will gain your step forward, and as the foot comes down from contact, you have options, though limited, with both hands. From the lead you have rear elbow, backfist, or ridgehand. Then from rear hand you have (for all you karateka) reverse punch, or straight punch, Rear uppercut, Palm thrust, whatever your flavor. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying its a desirable position, or any better than where front kick leaves you, just saying that there are options.
    Humbly,
    CZ
    If you do a side kick and step forward to hit with your rear hand, your body will have to shift all the way from an angled position, basically turning it into a haymaker, whether it be with the fist or whatever. Sure it'll hit hard if it lands, but haymaker motions are notorious for not landing. And this is coming from a guy who did choy li fut for years, a style known for its haymakerin'. From the front kick position, the body is in a more neutral position so both hands can be brought into play. Or, if you perfer, both hands can come into play if you use trapping + striking at the same time.

    From a side kick, I think its better to follow with the lead hand, even if you want to follow that with the cross, cause why not? Doing a side kick and following it with the rear hand is missing an opportunity.
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