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  1. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 11:35pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas View Post

    Leg submissions run the following gambit:

    Achilles Lock (straight)
    Knee Bars (straight)
    Calf Slicers (compression)
    Toe Hold (twisting)
    Heel Hook (twisting)
    *Blank look.....um...say what? Seriously.

    All the other stuff, good.
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/22/2012 11:39pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by TaeBo_Master View Post
    Omega is without a doubt the expert on leg locks specifically and grappling in general here. Especially for competition purposes.

    Personally, I think it's 80% what he said, and 20% a combination of other factors. Such as their being restricted in BJJ- and Judo-specific grappling competitions, which many fighters compete in before moving up to MMA. For that reason also, they get gradually removed from the coach's repertoire, which then means the students don't learn them. There are certain factors such as risk and such.

    Question to Omega and other grapplers who are proficient with leg locks: No doubt you're skilled at them and could use them in competition. Do you think that a moderately skilled leg lock opens a fighter up to greater risk than a moderately skilled arm-lock? In other words, do you have to have a high level of proficiency to make them worth using?
    Armlock is more important than leg lock. On the lower body you only have 2 real points of attack. On the upper body you have:
    Shoulder Upper
    Shoulder lower
    Chokes back
    Chokes front
    Chokes side
    Elbows

    Upper body attacks are more important. That being said it's stupid to ignore the lower half so far into your training.
  3. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2012 11:50am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Supreme View Post
    *Blank look.....um...say what? Seriously.

    All the other stuff, good.
    LOL...I guess I could have run through "Gene LeBell's Encyclopedia of Finishing Holds" and thrown in all kinds of crazy ****. Those are just "general" as there are, of course, many different types of straight ankle locks, and heel hook set-ups and finishes from differrent angles. Those were just general.

    But, from the BJJ perspective that is all we are really exposed to.
  4. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2012 12:07pm

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     Style: Chinese Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas View Post
    LOL...I guess I could have run through "Gene LeBell's Encyclopedia of Finishing Holds" and thrown in all kinds of crazy ****. Those are just "general" as there are, of course, many different types of straight ankle locks, and heel hook set-ups and finishes from differrent angles. Those were just general.

    But, from the BJJ perspective that is all we are really exposed to.
    Okay, from a technical stand point, and I apologize if this comes off condescendingly:

    1. Straight Ankle locks are never straight. This has been a problem with teaching at many pure BJJ academies.

    2. There are two toe holds. One is really and ankle lock and the other is really a heel hook.
  5. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2012 1:09pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omega— A common claim seems to be that leglocks are more dangerous, especially for beginners, due to a smaller margin of error; whereas an armbar has a gradual progression from “it hurts” via “it really hurts” through a few pops all the way to a real injury, leglocks (especially knee submissions) are said to go more rapidly from first pain to real injury, leaving less leeway for error and giving less time to tap. Do you feel that there’s anything to this; that it’s true; entirely untrue; true-ish but overblown?

    (I am fully cogniscant of my own leglock ignorance. I tend to tap very early because when I don’t know what the hell is going on, I’d much rather tap right away than twist my knee the wrong way in an incompetent escape attempt. Need to fill in this enormous hole in my game somehow.)
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
    [ self defence: general thoughts | bjj: “don’t go to the ground”? ]
    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  6. Vince Tortelli is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2012 1:26pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, you could always follow my example and learn the difference between "The kneebar is hurting my leg" and "The kneebar has renderd me incapable of locomotion besides the hop on one foot" by trying to gut one out because you are NOT going to tap to your younger brother cartwheeling into said kneebar twelve seconds into submission wrestling class.

    I will say that in this particular case I had plenty to feel the pain, think "I should tap...bugger that!", try to spin out, and then collapse face first on the mats as my knee made some really interesting noises.

    Personally, I believe it is the very enigmatic nature of the leg lock in BJJ that causes so many people to get hurt by them. After all, by the time you get to blue belt you've been through hundreds, maybe thousands of elbow and shoulder locks, you know when something is escapable and when it's time to make the noise of one hand tapping.
    People don't have that level of familiarity with leg locks, so they try to fight out of submissions that are fully sunk in and PRESTO! Six months on the injured reserve list, and one more statistic to be pulled out by black belts explaining that such moves are too dangerous to be trained on a regular basis.
  7. Res Judicata is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2012 2:18pm


     Style: Judo & BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    Omega— A common claim seems to be that leglocks are more dangerous, especially for beginners, due to a smaller margin of error; whereas an armbar has a gradual progression from “it hurts” via “it really hurts” through a few pops all the way to a real injury, leglocks (especially knee submissions) are said to go more rapidly from first pain to real injury, leaving less leeway for error and giving less time to tap. Do you feel that there’s anything to this; that it’s true; entirely untrue; true-ish but overblown?

    (I am fully cogniscant of my own leglock ignorance. I tend to tap very early because when I don’t know what the hell is going on, I’d much rather tap right away than twist my knee the wrong way in an incompetent escape attempt. Need to fill in this enormous hole in my game somehow.)
    That's the standard explanation for why leglocks were banned in Judo early on--too many injuries. At that time, a knee injury could be essentially crippling for life. Modern surgical repair techniques were a lifetime away. Elbows are much more sturdy and less debilitating if injured. Even today, though, knee injuries take a long time to heal and are more difficult to deal with than upper body injuries.

    It's my (anecdotal) experience that truly debilitating injuries are more common from leglocks than armlocks even today.
  8. RynoGreene is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2012 3:27pm


     Style: FMA/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kneebars and straight ankle locks aren't terribly dangerous when taught properly. Teaching someone a kimura is probably more dangerous. Toe holds and slicers are slightly more dangerous, and heel hooks have the biggest risk when done incorrectly.

    Good leg locks require good positional control of your opponent. This is what is not understood by many people, and why they are seen as such risky moves by many BJJ practitioners. You need to have your opponent's hips killed, balance broken, he should not have a good base, etc. (just like upper body subs) When you do all of this, it's not the shitty snatch and grab submissions that some people consider them.

    A good leg control position is not awarded points in BJJ competition. Sure, someone could get the sub from that position, but why not take the upper body position points, and hunt for a sub up there?

    In SAMBO however, you get points for a pin once, but then don't score for position switches. This means players will tend to use whatever sets them up for the sub. Legs are obviously a valid option here, and can be fairly high percentage when set up correctly.
  9. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2012 4:17pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RynoGreene View Post
    Kneebars and straight ankle locks aren't terribly dangerous when taught properly. Teaching someone a kimura is probably more dangerous. Toe holds and slicers are slightly more dangerous, and heel hooks have the biggest risk when done incorrectly.

    Good leg locks require good positional control of your opponent. This is what is not understood by many people, and why they are seen as such risky moves by many BJJ practitioners. You need to have your opponent's hips killed, balance broken, he should not have a good base, etc. (just like upper body subs) When you do all of this, it's not the shitty snatch and grab submissions that some people consider them.

    A good leg control position is not awarded points in BJJ competition. Sure, someone could get the sub from that position, but why not take the upper body position points, and hunt for a sub up there?

    In SAMBO however, you get points for a pin once, but then don't score for position switches. This means players will tend to use whatever sets them up for the sub. Legs are obviously a valid option here, and can be fairly high percentage when set up correctly.
    Well so much for my answer. Take this one and Vince's answer and there you go.
  10. GoldenJonas is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/23/2012 6:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli View Post
    Personally, I believe it is the very enigmatic nature of the leg lock in BJJ that causes so many people to get hurt by them. After all, by the time you get to blue belt you've been through hundreds, maybe thousands of elbow and shoulder locks, you know when something is escapable and when it's time to make the noise of one hand tapping.

    People don't have that level of familiarity with leg locks, so they try to fight out of submissions that are fully sunk in and PRESTO! Six months on the injured reserve list, and one more statistic to be pulled out by black belts explaining that such moves are too dangerous to be trained on a regular basis.
    From personal experience, this is perfect.
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