Thread: Leg Locks, Toe Holds Etc..
3/22/2012 7:11am, #1
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
Leg Locks, Toe Holds Etc..
It may well be obvious, but can someone tell me why Leg Locks, toe Holds and other Leg based submissions seem be pretty rare in MMA fights.
Is it because training these and getting them wrong can lead to serious injury so people tend not to practise these as much as they should?
3/22/2012 7:59am, #2
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
- Stockholm, Sweden (just south of the Polar Bears)
I don't know for sure but I think it is a combination, first off:
As you said, people are not used to it. If you have trained for years in getting the armbar, but "only" heelhooked people for months, the armbar WILL be a safer bet. In BJJ and Judo, footlooks are restricted, even in at more experienced level of competition.
It is also, perhaps, not as easy to get in an MMA-match. If you are in my guard, striking, you open yourself up to armbar, triangle etc, not to a kneebar.
3/22/2012 8:27am, #3
I was going too type a paragraph describing how the margin for error is smaller on lower versus upper body subs, but I'm uncertain if this is correct. I do know that failure to maintain proper position on many lower body subs will expose you to going from a dominant position to a weaker one (i.e. lose the kneebar, get your back taken), but I'd like to hear Omega or Sambo Steve's opinion before deciding for myself.
Shut the hell up and train.
3/22/2012 8:59am, #4
A combination of sweat, the legs being stronger than the arms, positional and control considerations, general familiarity, and risk/reward is responsible for the lower overall quantity of lower body submissions.
But, you just have to look at a guy like Rousimar Palhares to see that leglocks CAN be used incredibly effectively within the context of MMA. Most people don't seem to love them enough to train them the way Palhares does though, so we don't see them as much.
3/22/2012 9:12am, #5
Everything in MMA grappling (at least the way it tends to get judged in the US) is secondary to maintaining top position. You don't see many armbars from mount either, for the same reason.
3/22/2012 10:40am, #6
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
I recently obtained "Gokors Leg locks" volume 1-5....I am going to be in Thailand at the end of this month for a couple of months training Muay Thai, Im tempted to spend my down time trying to learn some of the leglocks in the video, they do look incredibly effective.
I think you would have a real advantage over your average MMA fighter if you become proficient in leg locks as there seems to be a lack of training in both offensive and defensive leg lock techniques.
Last edited by ZenMMA; 3/22/2012 11:08am at . Reason: Added videos
3/22/2012 12:11pm, #7
3/22/2012 4:01pm, #8
I think Omega is correct here, training only arm/shoulder locks and chokes is like just throwing punches at the head. Going to the body/Leg locks aren't going to replace the upper body work, but they can be used to set up/complement it very well, and are game changers in their own right.
Good grief I am awful at analogies.
3/22/2012 5:53pm, #9
Omega is without a doubt the expert on leg locks specifically and grappling in general here. Especially for competition purposes.
Personally, I think it's 80% what he said, and 20% a combination of other factors. Such as their being restricted in BJJ- and Judo-specific grappling competitions, which many fighters compete in before moving up to MMA. For that reason also, they get gradually removed from the coach's repertoire, which then means the students don't learn them. There are certain factors such as risk and such.
Question to Omega and other grapplers who are proficient with leg locks: No doubt you're skilled at them and could use them in competition. Do you think that a moderately skilled leg lock opens a fighter up to greater risk than a moderately skilled arm-lock? In other words, do you have to have a high level of proficiency to make them worth using?Click To Get My Free Training Newsletter... Do It NOW!
"You all just got fucking owned.";
"TaeBo_Master and GajusCaesar just scored 10,000,000 points on all you pawns."
- The Wastrel
3/22/2012 10:01pm, #10
Position over submission is the overriding mantra for successful grappling. This holds true regardless of whether you are competing in GI or No-GI, BJJ, Sambo, MMA.
Leg submissions run the following gambit:
Achilles Lock (straight)
Knee Bars (straight)
Calf Slicers (compression)
Toe Hold (twisting)
Heel Hook (twisting)
Most BJJ schools do not spend enough time properly training on the positional control need prior to attempting any of these locks. Most experienced (competitive) players have a general understanding of the set-ups for some or all of these submissions. However, failure to set the submission up properly will invariabley result in you giving up what may have been a dominant position to take a chance going for the leg. By its very nature, if you fail to hit the sub, you will end up in a crappy position.
In MMA, improper set-up for the attempted leg submission will get you mercilessly beat on as you are usually facing away from your opponent and have both of your hands working on the leg.
Bottom line, if you don't know what you are doing, and you fail to secure the sub, you will end up in a disadvantageous position in both grappling and MMA scenarios.